TikTok requests access to devices on local network
antioxidant 2021-08-16 16:38:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
They use the local network as one of their sensors to identify you (fingerprinting). However they have plenty more (see their privacy policy).
judge2020 2021-08-16 16:46:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]
To be fair quite a lot of apps did this to enable deep links/automatically opening certain clipboard links. Every big app has changed this to no longer show the 'pasted from' notification. And it was never shown that they export those clipboard contents to homebase.
colechristensen 2021-08-16 17:40:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
When it comes to an app gathering data for a company, is anybody really willing to give the app makers the benefit of the doubt? If there is information available, somebody is going to take it and try to squeeze a penny out of it. Not everybody, but when it gives you a competitive advantage it has a tendency to grow.
judge2020 2021-08-16 17:49:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]
https://old.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news...
duiker101 2021-08-16 17:58:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jeroenhd 2021-08-16 18:24:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It's certainly not as easy and reliable as it used to be, but it's still common for security research to use these tactics to see what apps are doing.
judge2020 2021-08-16 18:22:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
k1rcher 2021-08-16 21:00:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]
see: Frida, xposed framework (not sure if still relevant)
from 2021-08-16 23:18:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Yizahi 2021-08-17 15:34:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
MichaelGroves 2021-08-16 17:04:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dudus 2021-08-16 17:39:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]
smolder 2021-08-16 19:51:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
vlunkr 2021-08-16 18:36:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
hungryhobo 2021-08-16 17:25:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
blackoil 2021-08-16 18:27:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]
zuhsetaqi 2021-08-16 21:02:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]
— Jeremy Burge (@jeremyburge) June 24, 2020
TikTok wasn’t checking it for link opening …
pizza 2021-08-16 17:05:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Is that because they stopped checking your clipboard, or because they managed to check in a way that doesn't alert the user?
_fzslm 2021-08-16 17:31:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
so they probably updated their apps to perform this check before doing anything.
rvz 2021-08-16 16:58:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Well they already disclosed the other ways they are identifying you in [0] but have they disclosed this one that finds other devices on your local network for 'fingerprinting' purposes in their privacy policy?
The worst thing about this is that they haven't disclosed as to why they are specifically doing this. Not even the commenters here know why, since we can rule out AirPlay and Chromecast support as valid reasons to request such permissions.
phkahler 2021-08-16 17:51:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]
That's a design error on the UI side. An app should not have read access to the clipboard, it should have the ability to accept data from the clipboard when the user pastes it.
f1refly 2021-08-16 18:38:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Spivak 2021-08-16 19:39:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]
phkahler 2021-08-18 13:38:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
You can't have it both ways. Malicious apps are going to abuse it. In order to avoid that there needs to be access control at the very least - Google maps could get whitelisted for example.
Having a helpful use-case doesn't make it not a security issue.
dwild 2021-08-16 20:51:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
But why? It's an app... I guess this can allow them to link other people in your household to you, but isn't the wifi network name already available?
_trampeltier 2021-08-16 19:31:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
detaro 2021-08-16 19:40:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]
diebeforei485 2021-08-16 16:39:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Regardless, Apple has done the right thing by putting this behind a permissions box, but the developer should be required to have some sort of explanation string of why they need this.
alerighi 2021-08-16 16:48:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It's annoying because it's not like other permissions, where you can ask the OS to prompt the user, and check if the user granted it or not, but it's some special permission. If the user, by mistake because it doesn't know that it's needed, doesn't give it one time it's impossible to ask again, and the app doesn't have a way to know that the permission is not granted. It's just things that the customer service has to handle, and that is bad.
Sure, right to ask a permission, so make it like a regular permission as the location permission.
t0ps0il 2021-08-16 20:27:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Normally if I want to use a permission, say location, I need to provide a value for given permission in my app's `info.plist` file, and if I don't and the app tries to grab the current location, it crashes with logs yelling at me to provide a description for the location privacy key.
With local network permissions it's different.
I've never had to do any local networking in my career as an iOS dev so downloaded Apple's peer to peer example app (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/network/building_a...) and removed the `Privacy - Local Network Usage Description` key/value pair from the `info.plist` file and ran the app on my device.
I fully expected a crash with a description telling me to add this key but iOS just filled in the missing description with a default value and asked away. I wonder why that permission is treated differently from the rest?
swiley 2021-08-16 18:39:35 +0000 UTC [ - ]
adrr 2021-08-16 17:11:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ergl 2021-08-16 21:19:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]
You scan a QR code with one device and it transfers the entire account state to the new phone.
danlugo92 2021-08-16 17:35:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
zamadatix 2021-08-16 19:00:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Beyond the basic take on it there really isn't an intuitive single explanation because "simple" things like "NAT traversal" quickly turn into "Full-cone NAT to Port-restricted NAT with UPnP behind CG-NAT" individual corner cases endlessly fighting the need to just go to IPv6.
phreack 2021-08-16 17:18:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]
the_mitsuhiko 2021-08-16 19:04:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
So why it happens exactly would be interesting.
nicce 2021-08-16 21:54:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Making an outgoing TCP connection — yes
Listening for and accepting incoming TCP connections — no
Sending a UDP unicast — yes
Sending a UDP multicast — yes
Sending a UDP broadcast — yes
Receiving an incoming UDP unicast — no
Receiving an incoming UDP multicast — yes
Receiving an incoming UDP broadcast — yes
And finally usage of Bonjour operations.
[1] https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/663874
yc12340 2021-08-17 06:18:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Not sure, if such policy is a good idea, especially if the permission prompt automatically appears upon network activity without explicit developer intention. This will simply condition users to click "OK" without understanding what's going on.
kall 2021-08-16 23:22:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]
uniqueuid 2021-08-16 19:13:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
That opens new questions; for example, what's a "custom" DNS query? One that doesn't use mDNSResponder (or whatever iOS uses right now)?
the_mitsuhiko 2021-08-16 20:05:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
After that dialog was introduced I saw it pop up on stack overflow for some relatively common libraries (for instance with unity) even if they did not attempt to access the local network.
stingraycharles 2021-08-16 19:40:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Maybe it’s just as innocent as this, but OTOH, it’s tiktok we’re talking about.
dangoor 2021-08-16 16:23:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Lammy 2021-08-16 16:37:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The first possibility that comes to my mind would be sniffing Ethernet MAC addresses because it could be done without any sort of device-specific support built in to the app. Assuming your local devices’ manufacturers are following Da Rulez, the first part of their MAC address usually tells you the company, and the second part tends to be individualized/serialized.
That would, for example, let TikTok derive when certain users are together IRL if they both show up scan-adjacent to a unique MAC. Or maybe it could let them derive multiple accounts belonging to a single person if one is used on VPN-only to discuss political or personal topics that person might not want associated with their IRL identity.
giantrobot 2021-08-16 18:54:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Not only does TikTok have a ton of overt data about users but also contemporaneous data like usage patterns and physical location. Then using the app to collect and exfiltrate information about all manner of foreign networks. I can pass off that data to my government run hacking [2] groups [3] as well as regime-favored businesses for some really great market research.
[0] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bytedance-says-china-unit-hol...
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersecurity_Law_of_the_Peo...
reillyse 2021-08-16 23:14:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]
giantrobot 2021-08-17 00:44:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]
As for the data collection, TikTok/ByteDance is definitely going to store it. They wouldn't collect it otherwise. To the utility of the data, if they've got MAC addresses of devices on your home network they can tell many of the brands of devices you own. They know when you get a new computer even if you never use TikTok on it. If you launch the app at your office they get the same information about your office network. In aggregate their network scanning will collect vast amounts of data.
The TikTok app is turning every user into a passive network scanner. Even if you want to ignore the CCP's influence on ByteDance I don't think there is any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt about their data collection. They'll sell their users and anyone around them. I have the same problem with Facebook and their damn shadow profiles and covert data collection.
reillyse 2021-08-17 00:58:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
e_proxus 2021-08-17 14:44:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
giantrobot 2021-08-17 19:04:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
You're misrepresenting the situation because you want to frame the whole issue as some xenophobia on my part. The problem is TikTok is a social network with millions of users whose parent company literally has the CCP as a board member and is subject to China's extremely invasive state security laws (requiring warrantless access to corporate data). The app was already an intelligence gold mine and now they've added a vein of platinum.
The only double standard is contained within the strawman you've created. I have the same problem with Facebook or Twitter apps scanning my local network for no reason than to increase their data harvesting. But since TikTok is the subject of the thread I specifically pointed out problems with TikTok. Facebook and Twitter have their own problems, some of them overlap with problems that exist with TikTok.
Neither I or anyone else needs to list the myriad problems with every social network when criticizing any one of them. You're trying to use a tu quoque [0] argument claiming xenophobia and hypocrisy (where none exists) in hopes that distracts from the points being made.
sam0x17 2021-08-16 16:57:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ALittleLight 2021-08-16 17:31:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
vineyardmike 2021-08-16 19:00:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]
sam0x17 2021-08-17 21:16:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dheera 2021-08-16 20:19:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Being able to MITM and see what your apps and OS are sending back is the first step to real privacy.
rafale 2021-08-16 16:41:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
oefrha 2021-08-16 16:50:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
MichaelGroves 2021-08-16 17:08:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
oasisbob 2021-08-16 18:05:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Saying "all RFC1918 addresses are available over here" is quite a cocky and obviously broken thing to do, unless you're dealing with a corporate device which is paranoid about leaking traffic to other networks.
oefrha 2021-08-16 17:25:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
SllX 2021-08-16 16:32:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Also: TikTok doesn’t support AirPlay or Chromecast.
[1] Per the user’s instructions on a good day at least.
hatware 2021-08-16 18:49:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Maxburn 2021-08-16 16:28:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ss.android...
Based on the things they do call out as permissions this app is scary.
dehrmann 2021-08-16 16:36:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]
zahrc 2021-08-16 18:54:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Tiktok doesn’t support chrome cast (I think)
xfitm3 2021-08-16 16:26:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mholm 2021-08-16 16:31:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
My charitable guess is they're adding support for chromecasting behind feature flags/AB testing, but don't yet have it correctly enabled/disabled. There was a lot of uproar over instagram immediately using the microphone/camera constantly, when they actually just always had the API initialized to make swiping to the camera snappier.
danudey 2021-08-16 17:29:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I find the conspiracy theories more compelling, but less likely.
toxik 2021-08-16 18:28:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
azinman2 2021-08-16 18:26:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Closi 2021-08-16 16:28:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]
SavantIdiot 2021-08-16 16:50:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]
starik36 2021-08-16 18:46:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mercora 2021-08-16 16:26:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mtgx 2021-08-16 16:29:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
uniqueuid 2021-08-16 16:48:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
uniqueuid 2021-08-16 16:56:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-US/microsoftteams/use-ndi-in-m...
I do trust Microsoft to collect all tracking data that's possible at all, but at least there is also a valid use case here.
It's even somehow plausible that they would require this permission for any kind of video streaming - to make sure all permissions are present before someone wants to start a locally streamed call.
avnigo 2021-08-16 17:17:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]
uniqueuid 2021-08-16 17:42:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mschuster91 2021-08-16 22:22:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
lloydatkinson 2021-08-16 16:51:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
As for Tick Tock it’s obviously spyware meant for direct user identification. How anyone can use it when it’s uploading their biometric information (face, voice) to the CCP is beyond stupidity.
po1nter 2021-08-16 16:57:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
filoleg 2021-08-16 22:21:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Even when it comes to someone like me, who is very strongly anti-CCP, it definitely irks me a bit. Mostly because making strong accusations like that without any reasoning other than “they can, so they definitely do it” only makes that position look weaker and more difficult to align with. Why make up those things and accusations, when there are so many other valid points for criticism there? There is a reason for why “the boy who cried wolf” is a very commonly referenced parable.
andrewmd5 2021-08-16 16:56:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]
q-rews 2021-08-16 17:17:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It happened to me just yesterday: “Why does X require local network access? Ugh.” A minute later “Oh, Y is also requiring network access.”
Yes, I was on a public wifi.
This may be 100% Apple’s fault, everyone here is just commenting on a photo and not confirming that they also saw the message today.
Too 2021-08-16 18:22:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
All kinds of apps I use regularly, which have absolutely no use for it, started asking for permission to list devices on local network.
hokkos 2021-08-16 16:53:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]
SubiculumCode 2021-08-16 16:59:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]
TchoBeer 2021-08-16 20:26:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
qwerty456127 2021-08-18 08:41:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]
IMHO the OS or some common proxy app should take care of this. Yes, Chromecasting is a legitimate case and it's nice of TikTok or any other relevant app to offer such a feature but I don't trust random (let alone Chinese) app vendors to scan my home network.
snapetom 2021-08-16 19:40:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
SllX 2021-08-16 21:28:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]
snapetom 2021-08-16 21:59:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]
SllX 2021-08-16 22:12:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I haven’t used my Pokeball Plus since about a month after I bought it, which was basically day or week 1, but if I recall correctly the mandate to ask for permissions only came around after that time frame and I would expect it the next time I pulled it out.
But if it does work without Bluetooth permissions; then that’s cool, or if this is a separate dialog than the Bluetooth permissions dialog, then I’m just wrong which is also fine and I can live with that.
snapetom 2021-08-19 08:56:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The network discovery is different. iOS will popup a dialog saying something like, "Pokemon Go wants to discover other devices on your network" or something like that, which is what this story is about. I believe it pops up once when you install and sign up, but then it never asks again.
j45 2021-08-16 20:59:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
wyldfire 2021-08-16 17:16:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
prashnts 2021-08-16 18:17:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
intrasight 2021-08-16 16:44:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
finiteseries 2021-08-16 17:39:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
You’re asking a forum of power users/creators, where a loud minority completely unironically still use desktop & laptop computers for activities besides work. The only people on earth less understanding (intentionally or not) of consumer behavior are the Sentinelese.
JadeNB 2021-08-16 18:55:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Is using a desktop or laptop for non-work activities ironic somehow?
finiteseries 2021-08-16 19:37:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]
unironically = sincerely/earnestly
JadeNB 2021-08-16 20:35:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
finiteseries 2021-08-16 22:26:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mdoms 2021-08-16 18:11:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
And let's not forget that Apple actively works against this way of working by intentionally gimping their browser capabilities and outright disallowing competing browsers.
mattnewton 2021-08-16 19:06:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mzs 2021-08-16 18:36:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
micromacrofoot 2021-08-16 17:12:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]
abledon 2021-08-16 16:49:35 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Dragging-Syrup 2021-08-16 16:32:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]
moooo99 2021-08-16 16:45:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
MisterTea 2021-08-16 19:27:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Let the hostile phones, TV's, sonos, toasters, etc live on the IOT network and your laptop, desktop, NAS and whatever else you value live on a your actual LAN.
micromacrofoot 2021-08-16 17:09:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Are people getting enough out of the content on TikTok to warrant installing an app from a country that has been outright hostile to the US (from a cybersecurity perspective)?
I've seen some of the most popular TikTok content without ever creating an account.
_user112 2021-08-17 07:01:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]
So many mentally ill people. Please meditate, and engage in introspection.
TikTok literally, openly says it's an artificial neutral net that games the human brain for attention.
jeffbee 2021-08-16 16:51:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
1) The app on the smart tv can connect to a command-and-control network in the cloud, which will make deranged HNers howl in disapproval.
2) The app on the phone can discover local devices it can control, which will make deranged HNers howl in disapproval.
rvz 2021-08-16 16:28:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The intention from YouTube is obvious as they use it for Chromecast, but why does TikTok need this particular access? Have they disclosed this usage somewhere?
On top of that and continuing from [0], it seems that it is collecting even more things that you may not even know about [0]. Far worse than the other apps out there.
The purpose? The recommendation algorithm, of course. Otherwise, how else is it supposed to work?
To Downvoters: Lots of commenters here saying that TikTok does not support AirPlay or Chromecast. Since that can be ruled out, what is the intention of this permission and is it disclosed anywhere on why do they need such access?
I'm also assuming that you know why TikTok needs access to devices on your local network? Maybe you can elaborate on this?
uniqueuid 2021-08-16 17:00:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]
[edit] And of course, there's WebRTC leaking your local IP - which ublock origin can specifically block [2].
[1] https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/ebay-port-sca...
[2] https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Prevent-WebRTC-from-l...
swiley 2021-08-16 18:34:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
na85 2021-08-16 22:16:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
the_mitsuhiko 2021-08-16 18:56:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]
swiley 2021-08-16 19:04:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Hnrobert42 2021-08-16 19:27:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
swiley 2021-08-16 19:37:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]
paulryanrogers 2021-08-16 23:11:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
swiley 2021-08-17 00:09:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]
73r7fudhdjduru 2021-08-16 21:53:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
godelski 2021-08-17 17:45:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Let's be real, most people are tech illiterate. If someone can't read a contract and there is no one there to explain it to them, then they are not engaging in informed consent.
Of course we have to ask if this is ethical or not. But let's not boil the conversation down to "we asked, so it is right." One side is arguing that the person didn't give informed consent and the other side is arguing that consent was given simply because a button was pressed.
It's honestly an ethical discussion of if this is right or not.
indymike 2021-08-16 22:05:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Yes, by asking someone who doesn't have permission to give that authorization to do so.
2021-08-16 19:12:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
kayfox 2021-08-16 20:47:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]
sunshineforever 2021-08-17 03:05:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I thought you had to use the information nefariously for there to be a crime.
How can receiving broadcasts be illegal?
3np 2021-08-18 02:41:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Running tools like nmap have gotten people in trouble though, and it varies by country.
https://nmap.org/book/legal-issues.html
judge2020 2021-08-16 18:40:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
swiley 2021-08-16 18:43:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
teawrecks 2021-08-16 20:24:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
xvector 2021-08-16 22:21:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
godelski 2021-08-17 17:47:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
2021-08-17 04:08:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
nostrademons 2021-08-16 18:03:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicast_DNS
uniqueuid 2021-08-16 19:16:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Apparently, some chinese smart TV brands have been doing similar things, but I wouldn't be surprised if most other vendors have caught up and used stealthier techniques.
[edit] Here's the news about those chinese TVs [2] and the original report [3]
[1] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/lg-sm...
[2] https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/04/skyworth_gozen_smart_...
[3] https://www.v2ex.com/t/772523
excitom 2021-08-16 21:26:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
uniqueuid 2021-08-16 21:34:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Sorry if that wasn't clear.
jacquesm 2021-08-16 21:09:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bigiain 2021-08-17 00:43:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I wonder if I could rob a bank, then if I got caught claim "I was just checking to make sure they had enough money to cover my deposits!"
wyager 2021-08-16 21:08:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
You’ll need a router/firewall and an AP that are both VLAN-aware. I personally use an EAP225 and some eBay industrial PC running freebsd.
blacksmith_tb 2021-08-16 21:46:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
hipsterhelpdesk 2021-08-16 17:52:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
uniqueuid 2021-08-16 18:58:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]
"Keep in mind that this feature is to prevent leakage of your non-internet-facing IP adresses. The purpose of this feature is not to hide your current internet-facing IP address -- so be cautious to not misinterpret the results of some WebRTC-local-IP-address-leakage tests found online."
That said, my Firefox 91 and Safari don't leak local IPs regardless of the ublock setting.
Warrants more investigation perhaps.
allo37 2021-08-16 19:40:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=878465
uniqueuid 2021-08-16 19:50:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]
[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mdns-ice-candida...