A vegan diet could affect your intelligence (2020)

after_care 2021-08-18 13:59:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Long time vegan and successful knowledge worker here. I think this study does not closely reflect a modern western vegan diet.

1. There was no supplementation. A modern vegan should be supplementing or eating foods fortified in B6, B12, D, and DHA/DPA. This type of advice is really common among vegan resources and many vegan foods will be fortified with these types of vitamins (DHA/DPA is a bit more rare). There are non-animal sources for all of these vitamins. There is some debate on if DHA/DPA is as effective as consuming Omega 3 directly. Omega 3s can be found in adequate amounts inside many types of seeds, and seeds will have other valuable nutrients as well.

2. The study put people on a diet of soup with meat, soup with milk, or soup with oil. Oil clearly has the least amount of protein and nutrients compared to the other three. In real life humans have better diet choices.

3. The BBC article has a lot of evolutionary arguments for eating meat. In my mind historical dietary practices is as irrelevant as historical medical practices. Modern humans live under such different circumstances. We have a massive food surplus, our life span is 2x, our lifestyle is highly sedentary, we have access to a much greater variety of food and we have a much better understanding of nutrition and human biology. “This is the way things have always been done” is not a good enough reason for me to base my health choices on, and diet is one of the biggest health choices you can make.

Plant based foods are healthy for the human body, significantly better for the environment, and more compassionate to all life.

cheese_goddess 2021-08-18 15:24:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There are many more than that one study cited in the article. It's informative to read a few of them, for example:

> Vitamin B12 Sources and Bioavailability

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3181/0703-MR-67

> Serum concentrations of vitamin B12 and folate in British male omnivores, vegetarians and vegans: results from a cross-sectional analysis of the EPIC-Oxford cohort study

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inl...

> Subacute Combined Degeneration of the Spinal Cord in Vegetarians: Vegetarian's Myelopathy

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/45/10/...

> Is vegetarianism healthy for children?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2018.1...

> Vitamin B12 deficiency is endemic in Indian population: A perspective from North India

https://www.ijem.in/article.asp?issn=2230-8210;year=2019;vol...

And more.

spicymaki 2021-08-19 10:01:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Sure, I can also cherry-pick articles on how meat consumption is unhealthy as well.

B12 is a solved problem for vegans via supplementation, and we even supplement farm animals to get enough into omnivore diets. Vitamin D is also a solved problem, and omnivores are deficient as well.

There are some vegans that refuse to supplement due to being on fad diets, but that does not mean vegans cannot get the nutrients they need.

cheese_goddess 2021-08-19 12:38:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Sure, I can also cherry-pick articles on how meat consumption is unhealthy as well.

Go ahead, but those are irrelevant if they're about eating meat. The studies I linked to suggest that not eating meat can cause B12 deficiencies. They say more things that might be interesting but you'll have to read them for that.

And of course it's not a "solved problem" if people actually suffer from it. That's just wilful ignorance.

> There are some vegans that refuse to supplement due to being on fad diets, but that does not mean vegans cannot get the nutrients they need.

And that's a classic No True Scottsman, I believe.

I use an alt for conversations like this because I genuinely feel soiled afterwards, the level of debate is so low, almost without fail. Dishonesty and politicking all the way down.

N1H1L 2021-08-18 14:59:35 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Whenever I hear the term “This is the way things have always been done” I always retort back,

"If we had continued doing things as they have always been done, we would still be hunter-gatherers on the African savannah, and civilization wouldn't exist."

pcthrowaway 2021-08-19 08:08:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Also a long time vegan and not completely malnourished. Did you read the whole article? It discusses several studies where vegetarians and vegans are given supplements, and generally ends on the note that you absolutely need to supplement to live optimally on a vegan diet.

I mostly agree, although I think the title and tone taken at the beginning are uncharitable.

dleacock 2021-08-18 14:30:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I agree and to add to your third point... weren't we eating plants long before we started eating meat as primates? I feel like the evolutionary argument shows that our bodies are more aligned with a plant based diet.

GravitasFailure 2021-08-18 15:28:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Whatever human ancestor was a pure herbivore was some millions of years ago, and in the process we started to rely on meat for nutrients such as B12 and creatine. We also absorb heme iron, which is exclusively found in meat, far better than plant sources of iron, while our stomach acidity is closer to vultures and owls than other primates. I very much doubt humans could survive without at least some meat without agriculture.

estaseuropano 2021-08-18 22:30:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Historically humans lived with very little to no meat for most of human history. Most humans also were malnourished/underfed as are most wild animals most of the time. Many humans also lived vegan all their lives by choicr (see e.g. Indian religipns). So I'm not sure your argument holds that modern agriculture is required for a healthy ot ay leats sustainable vegan diet.

That said, you are also right that obviously we don't have the capacity to live with the diet of our predecessor species. Famously early mammals (or possibly predecessors) were able to generate their own vitamins C, but this capacity is lost in modern humans and many other species as vitamin C was usually very well available. Just like we lost the fur on most of our bodies, evolution tends to drop things no longer essential for survival.

So we are dependent on our environment not just for general input but also for certain specific nutrients that we simply cannot produce on our own. But I don't think we can derive from this an argument for eating meat - as you flag, we do have modern agriculture, let's use it for the best, not junk food and often vile and inhumane treatment of animals.

GravitasFailure 2021-08-19 02:50:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Our savannah ancestors very likely consumed less meat than modern humans, like you said, but my point was that certain nutrients aren't too humans available at all without animal inputs. Agriculture (notice I didn't say modern agriculture) enabled lacto-vegetarianism by adding milk to get those nutrients, but that's 12,000 years out of...what? 50,000 years of homo sapiens sapiens existence? Those inputs aren't trivial, either, since a lack of B12 will cause irreversible central nervous system damage in adults after about 5 years and straight up kills children.

Indian diets are also a great example here since the Kshatriya caste were the warriors and rulers and also included meat in their diet, partially for the caloric density to make transporting rations easier but also for the health benefits to get fighting fit. Most indians included at least some eggs and meat while none of them went without dairy, except in fairly narrow cases of ascetics for limited periods of time. The Brahmins, who had the strictest rules against meat, were not laborers, which should tell you something important about human physiology and heavy physical activity.

Of course in the modern era, with abundant food, refrigeration, dietary supplements, and so on...sure, a legitimately vegan diet is absolutely possible. Historically? Not so much.

xkcd-sucks 2021-08-19 01:17:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Evolutionary history also suggeats that modern human brain development was supported by scavenging kills, i.e. smashing bones with rocks to eat the marrow

ericmcer 2021-08-18 21:49:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Do products like Beyond meat and the impossible burger attempt to address these issues? I know the FDA adding nutrients to cereal/milk/salt/etc had huge impacts on public health. It is weird those companies don’t focus more on nutritionally replacing meat vs flavor & protein.

For my own anecdote my health has skyrocketed since I started eating more meat, but not things like sausages, hamburgers and chicken breasts. Instead I take an entire chicken and break it down and eat everything: skin, sinew, and make broth from the carcass. I swear I recover from exercise like I’m 20 again.

after_care 2021-08-18 22:03:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Beyond Meat (and other meat alternatives) handles a lot from the amino acid and iron side of things.

Soymilk/Dairy Alternative ls will often be fortified with B and D vitamins.

StopTheWorld 2021-08-18 13:55:35 +0000 UTC [ - ]

A poor vegan diet can affect your health just as a poor non-vegan diet can affect your health. Three years ago the CDC said over 42% of Americans are overweight - most of them are not vegans, and this is often due to a poor diet.

The article mentions B12, and it has been known since the 1930s (and before that to some extent) that people need to eat foods with vitamin B12. Vegans and vegetarians need to make sure they get enough B12 and other things, and anyone who has sought to read about a good vegan diet for decades has known this. Just as people know that many non-vegan American diets tend to be too high in saturated fat, sodium, simple sugars etc.

The article mentions Gandhi. Many in India have been vegetarian for millennia, including many Brahmin. It seems to have worked for them over the past 3000 years.

That vegans need to make sure they get B12 and the like or they will eventually suffer ill effects is not new information, it has been known for a long time.

This whole thing really reads like FUD.

cheese_goddess 2021-08-18 15:14:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> The article mentions Gandhi. Many in India have been vegetarian for millennia, including many Brahmin. It seems to have worked for them over the past 3000 years.

There's a lot of B12 deficiency in India, for example:

> Conclusion: Prevalence of vitamin B12 deficiency is 47% in north Indian population. People with diabetes have higher vitamin B12 levels than general population though still have high prevalence of deficiency. This data shows that Vitamin B12 deficiency is widespread in Indian population.

https://www.ijem.in/article.asp?issn=2230-8210;year=2019;vol...

The study is mentioned in the article.

KitDuncan 2021-08-19 06:32:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Aren't B12 deficiencies widespread everywhere though? I think I read somewhere that ~40% of the US population is B12 deficient, regardless of diet.

cheese_goddess 2021-08-19 12:43:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Aren't B12 deficiencies widespread everywhere though?

I genuinely don't know but it doesn't matter. It stands to reason that if even meat-eaters are B12 deficient, vegans will be even more so.

option_greek 2021-08-18 18:38:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]

And since it mentions India, the mathematician Ramanujan was a vegetarian (not vegan) and I'm not sure if people can argue it held him back. I guess the article does it self a great disservice by combining Vegan with Vegetarian all over the place and all based on one study on children from a poor nation who might even be suffering from calorie/protein deficits.

Still, Vegans do have to be careful as its really easy to fall in to deficiencies of various kinds. Its especially difficult for Western Vegetarians or Vegans compared to Indians as Indian vegetarians rely on their traditional meal combinations to ensure various nutrient needs are taken care of (unintentionally through tradition/culture).

anikan_vader 2021-08-18 23:34:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Funny you mention Ramanujan… It’s thought that his dislike of English food greatly contributed to his poor health, as he couldn’t find any good vegetarian food in England. This culminated in him dying of TB at a very young age.

It’s hard to imagine what math would be like today if he had made it another 40 years.

pcthrowaway 2021-08-19 08:12:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Worth noting that vegetarian in India means lacto-vegetarian (eating dairy, but no eggs).

goodpoint 2021-08-18 14:28:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> A poor vegan diet can affect your health just as a poor non-vegan diet can affect your health.

Spot on. Plenty of people have poor diets due to habits (e.g. way too much meat) or poverty (e.g. unbalanced diet).

The article is clearly cherry-picking examples of uninformed or poor vegans while also ignoring how unhealthy other diets can be.

(And no, I'm not vegan myself)

cheese_goddess 2021-08-18 15:19:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> The article is clearly cherry-picking examples of uninformed or poor vegans while also ignoring how unhealthy other diets can be.

Those "uninformed or poor vegans" (do you mean vegans "with poor eating habits"?) seem to be about half of all vegans:

> Results:

> Mean serum vitamin B12 was highest among omnivores (281, 95% CI: 270–292 pmol/l), intermediate among vegetarians (182, 95% CI: 175–189 pmol/l) and lowest among vegans (122, 95% CI: 117–127 pmol/l). In all, 52% of vegans, 7% of vegetarians and one omnivore were classified as vitamin B12 deficient (defined as serum vitamin B12 <118 pmol/l). There was no significant association between age or duration of adherence to a vegetarian or a vegan diet and serum vitamin B12. In contrast, folate concentrations were highest among vegans, intermediate among vegetarians and lowest among omnivores, but only two men (both omnivores) were categorized as folate deficient (defined as serum folate <6.3 nmol/l).

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inl...

(Study cited in the article)

goodpoint 2021-08-18 18:04:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This is only one study. And only from UK.

Plus, it's from 11 years ago before a lot of B12 fortified products were introduced.

And most importantly, it's only showing decrease in B12 while folates are higher and a healthy diet requires many hundreds nutrients.

This is exactly what cherry-picking represents.

cheese_goddess 2021-08-19 12:35:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That's one study I happened to read because it was linked in the article. You're welcome to link to the ones you prefer.

I have to say though that in conversations like this there's nothing easier than to accuse the other person of "cherry picking". I link to one study, you say "Cherry Picking!". You link to a counter-study, I say "Cherry Picking!". And so on.

What's difficult is to accept that there are things we don't know, that data is scarce, that most research results have low statistical power and that lacking solid information at a population level it's irresponsible to promote diets that may cause harm.

Like you sya, a healthy diet (probably) requires many hundreds of nutrients. B12 is one of those. To not advise people to do things that may deprive them of necessary nutrients, is the responsible thing to do.

goodpoint 2021-08-19 16:08:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> I link to one study, you say "Cherry Picking!"

No. We are talking about the article.

> that data is scarce

Nutrition science has been around for decades and people get PhDs in it. Like in most fields medicine there's always space to discover more but claiming that data is "scarce" is exaggerated.

> lacking solid information at a population level it's irresponsible to promote diets that may cause harm.

> To not advise people to do things that may deprive them of necessary nutrients, is the responsible thing to do.

There are millions of people in the world facing risks related to obesity like hearth attack and following other bad diets due to ignorance, or poor availability of healthy foods, or following absurd fad diets.

Of all irresponsible diet advice that can be given... you are clearly painting a boogeyman, like the article does.

That's very cheeky.

HKH2 2021-08-18 14:16:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Americans are overweight because of carbs.

I've seen vegans on YouTube putting sugar into banana milkshakes of all things, so I'm led to believe there are quite a few ethical vegans who don't have such a concern for their health.

avmich 2021-08-18 15:45:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There is a diet, where, in addition to eating vegan, SOFAS products - salt, oil, flour, alcohol, sugar - are to be avoided. Some also avoid "highly processed foods". I guess those who follow these avoid some carb issues.

musicale 2021-08-18 21:47:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> It seems to have worked for them over the past 3000 years.

One interesting question is: where did vegetarians get adequate vitamin b12 before the age of supplements?

Perhaps fermented foods, contaminated water, soil on vegetables, use of manure fertilizer, or maybe animal products like eggs and cheese?

sterlind 2021-08-19 06:05:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]

yeah, I've heard it argued that B12 is produced by a lot of soil bacteria, which would have been sufficient for historic vegans.. but now since plants are washed we don't get B12 (and salmonella!) from plant sources.

dleacock 2021-08-18 16:07:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The article makes it seem like B12 naturally comes from meat, which is does not, the animals are given B12 supplements.

spicymaki 2021-08-19 09:35:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The omega 3 DHA/EPA in fish comes from algae and can be supplemented directly. ALA in canola oil, soybean oil, chia/flax seeds can be processed by the human body to make DHA/EPA.

delibes 2021-08-18 13:51:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

"Whatever the truth is, isn’t it about time we found out?"

Most other vegans I know seem to be very aware of the nutrition issues, and take EPA/DHA supplements and extra vitamins. "Nootch" - nutritional yeast - is also a very common ingredient used to boost vitamins and minerals.

It's of course hard to be 100% sure what's safe, but then eating meat also has it's risks - heart disease, cancer, e. coli. etc - as well as environmental costs.

Going vegan is quite a big step, and most people would benefit from eating a lot less meat.

metalliqaz 2021-08-18 13:59:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

"most people would benefit from eating a lot less meat."

This is so true, as long as they are replacing it with fruits and vegetables. Many vegans are going to vegan anyway because of the ethical arguments. But holy hell, the western diet is severely lacking in vegetables.

If people ate lots of meat, but mixed with an equal proportion of veggies, they would be a lot healthier. But nobody does. It's highly processed grains and oils. Literally poison. Getting your typical American to simply eat less meat would probably result in a large uptick in consumption of processed corn products. Health would not improve.

goodpoint 2021-08-18 14:20:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> the western diet is severely lacking in vegetables

The mediterranean diet has plenty and it is "western". Maybe you mean the american diet?

metalliqaz 2021-08-18 14:28:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Perhaps. I don't really know how these terms are defined. However I recall reading that American/British/Australian eating habits have invaded "Mediterranean" areas and are having the same negative effects.

spicymaki 2021-08-19 10:06:35 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Those same bad eating habits have also invaded China with dire consequences.

SuperNinKenDo 2021-08-18 13:48:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It's weird that the article mentions supplements so often yet reads as if the author had never heard of them or considered their use to make up any deficiencies in a vegan/vegetarian diet.

As someone diagnosed with a serious iron deficiency as a child that later went vegetarian, I never noticed an issue, however immediately noticed after taking creatine for work outs that my mental faculties improved. People just need to pay attention to their bodies and monds; most people would be better off if they did, not simply vegetarians.

hirundo 2021-08-18 14:12:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I was on a strict raw vegan diet for about nine months, and the primary reason I stopped was "brain fog". I just couldn't think and didn't want to, compared to before, and adding meat to my diet resolved it within a week or so. This is a common story among the people I met in that community. I don't know how much of this experience was due to the "raw" or "strict" parts. For all I know I would have done fine as cooked-food vegan or an oreos and fritos vegan.

I transitioned to all carnivore 11 months ago and have not had similar health problems. Or any health problems that I can attribute to the diet. This line from the article nicely summarizes my current point of view:

> and what better way to find the enormous array of fats, amino acids, vitamins and minerals these fastidious organs require, than by feasting on animals which have already painstakingly collected or made them.

If you're seeking the most dense and complete nutrition your quest will tend to lead you toward organ meats rather than plants.

spicymaki 2021-08-19 09:16:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Isn’t that a bit extreme? Meat is contains saturated fat, cholesterol, and is carcinogenic in many forms so you may be harming your health long term. Plant based foods also contain nutrients you cannot obtain from meat alone. You are also missing fiber which used to manage blood sugar, cholesterol, and improves colon health. Then there is ethical and environmental issue. The latest IPPC report should give you pause. Raw vegan is problematic since cooking food releases nutrients. Many raw vegans refuse to supplement as well, which is unsustainable.

inpdx 2021-08-18 13:55:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The only kids I know who were raised vegan have excelled in school, the older one becoming valedictorian.

dleacock 2021-08-18 14:24:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]

B12 only exists in meat because the animals are fed supplements. Also there is vegan sources of Omega-3 found in algae. That's where salmon get their omega-3 from.

sterlind 2021-08-19 06:10:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Animals don't produce B12 but they definitely contain it. Otherwise they'd be dead.. they need it as much as we do.

stevespang 2021-08-18 13:09:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Excess iron added to food products under law likely causes unneeded free radical production and aging in anyone who is not a menstruating female.

Taurine is not an essential amino acid. Vit. B12, choline from lethicin, EPA and DHA in Fish oil all obtainable in supplements which I and many vegetarians already consume.

Suspicious why the author doesn't discuss cholesterol in meat and dairy ?

Excessive cholesterol consumption is identified as the #1 causation of aging and disease in "The China Study" which was a 20 year long research project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study

The New York Times says of The China study: "The study can be considered the Grand Prix of epidemiology".

stefantalpalaru 2021-08-18 13:44:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> An earlier version of this article stated omega-3 generally only occurs in animal products. The article has been corrected to make clear there are three types of omega-3 fatty acids and that one of these, ALA, is found mainly in plants.

"very little ALA is converted to EPA and even less, if any to DHA" (Sanderson et al., 2002)

The only vegetal source of bioavailable omega-3 fatty acids seems to be algae oil. Unfortunately, very few vegans are aware of that.

somewhereoutth 2021-08-19 01:27:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Much as with anti-vax, veganism is more about maintaining an illusion of personal control in a world where really we have very little, than actually saving animals.

(I will leave to one side the social signalling aspect, which again has absolutely nothing to do with animals)

(And of course other people have to bend over to accommodate your foible, or otherwise you can feel justifiably aggrieved - a win all around!)

Farm animals can be understood as devices for changing things we can't eat into things we can. Without them a large majority of the human population would starve.

Having said all that, we do eat far too much meat, and there is no reason to be more than necessarily horrible to said animals.

spicymaki 2021-08-19 09:27:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Personal control (illusory or not) is what separates humans from animals.

The world cannot sustain meat production at scale. If there is magic nutrients in meat that currently can’t be replicated by a vegan diet via supplements (I am not aware of any), we better figure it out soon.

DangitBobby 2021-08-19 03:30:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> veganism is more about maintaining an illusion of personal control in a world where really we have very little, than actually saving animals

Sounds like you've got it all figured out.