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Minecraft is helping children with autism make new friends (2016)

kitd 2021-08-19 09:57:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Slightly OT, but Minecraft was a godsend for my kids during lockdown. AFAICS, they made no distinction between playing with their mates in a virtual playground from playing in a physical one. The interactions seemed identical and definitely helped them socially in that time.

michaelbuckbee 2021-08-19 12:20:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Minecraft was this for my kids as well, but the big surprise as far as "virtual playgrounds" to me was how incredibly social the games on Roblox are.

I'd (to my detriment) kind of written off Roblox as really shallow, but the overall ecosystem of games pushes things in fascinating directions.

kgwxd 2021-08-19 13:57:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

When my first kid was younger, I had written off Roblox as the worst predatory company on the planet (until Fortnite came along). I still think they're awful as a company, but my younger kid now also loves to play it, and his big brother taught him to ignore anything asking him for Robux, so I don't have to go through the endless fights over getting a digital hat for $20 USD, and I actually enjoy playing it with them.

dcow 2021-08-19 07:55:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This is from 2016. It probably needs a year tag. Definitely Minecraft has been know to help build friendships, at least among my friends. We’ve known this for a good while, to put it one way…

codeulike 2021-08-19 12:25:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The subject of the article, Autcraft, is still going strong I believe

https://www.autcraft.com/

brimoore 2021-08-19 14:25:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Children with autism or not, Minecraft has countless stories. There's a lot of friendship stories in here that lasted so many years. It is a hub in which many people can play and interact together to help your social skills.

mike_hock 2021-08-19 09:24:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Does anyone without autism play Minecraft?

kitd 2021-08-19 09:54:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It wouldn't surprise me if the number ran into the millions.

hnbad 2021-08-18 19:15:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Most "people with autism" prefer being called autistic by the way. The "with autism" label is mostly being pushed by parents of autistic children and autism organizations that aren't actually headed by any autistics (those also frequently use the "puzzle piece" symbol, which originates with Autism Speaks, an organization run by parents of autistic children that wants to find "a cure for autism", which some autistics consider a white washed form of eugenics).

tobyhinloopen 2021-08-19 07:42:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It really depends who you’re asking. Some autistic people don’t like to be defined by their autism, hence “people with autism”.

I personally think it’s just a weird discussion with no value. There is no universal term people are happy with - You can’t do it right. Whatever set of words you’re using, you’ll end up offending someone. It makes it hard to talk about autism, because the endless discussion how to call these people distracts from the real discussions.

mistermann 2021-08-19 13:34:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Alternatively, maybe it would help to have an "absurdly" in depth discussion, disassembling the phenomenon into tiny pieces that are seen differently by different people, and discuss why people see them differently, etc. And perhaps by doing a deep dive on this one subject, perhaps we'd learn something generic about ourselves that would be transferable to other subjects, similar to cross domain communication in science and engineering.

It seems to me that we use a very different thinking style in anything involving the humanities than we do with materialistic & deterministic domains, where our approaches have proven themselves so successful.

mwcampbell 2021-08-19 08:45:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There also seems to be increasing pushback by disabled people against person-first language in general. For example, from a blind person: https://mosen.org/person-first-language-it-does-more-harm-th...

AzzieElbab 2021-08-19 12:02:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The article is about kids. Kids, don’t care about these semantics

sidlls 2021-08-19 14:37:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You might be surprised what autistic kids care about. I have one, and that kid has an amazingly well developed sensibility about certain things, far more advanced than his peers’ and even a good fraction of adults.

unyttigfjelltol 2021-08-19 13:22:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

My child is all about these semantics and antipathy toward Autism Speaks.

breakfastduck 2021-08-19 13:39:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Talk about trying to find a reason to be offended about something. Wow.

I have brown hair. I'd prefer to be called brown haired. But calling me a person with brown hair is perfectly accurate too. Give it a rest.

2021-08-19 11:21:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Knufen 2021-08-19 07:45:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

What does "white washed form of eugenics" mean? Legitimately curious!

hinoki 2021-08-19 08:01:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Not GP, but I assume autistic people see the goal of a universal cure for autism (or even an accurate screening method for pregnancies) is the same as wiping out the existence of people like them.

erklik 2021-08-19 08:24:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> universal cure for autism

Would the same view apply to every disability? For example, screening for Down Syndrome largely results in abortion. Is that also eugenics? Or is it not the same since Autism isn't a genetic disorder?

cameronh90 2021-08-19 08:41:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Some downs people/family also think the same about downs. Also deaf and others...

Personally as an autist I wouldn't want to cure it for myself as it would be a large change in personality that I don't think I could integrate - but if I was to have kids, I'd rather they were "cured" of autism when young.

odessacubbage 2021-08-19 12:25:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

i would gladly cease existing if it meant autism would also cease to exist. the second part is negotiable.

an_ko 2021-08-19 10:30:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The difference I see is whether the suffering they cause is avoidable.

To my understanding, the argument made by autistic rights advocates is that people with the condition could usually live like anyone else, if society open-mindedly accommodated for them. This is already the norm for disabilities requiring e.g. braille or a wheelchair. Attempts to "cure autism" feel eugenics-ish because they're lazy intellectual shortcuts; avoid our shared responsibility of accommodating for differences, by erasing the differences.

In contrast, the case for abortion of Down syndrome fetuses is that the condition necessarily comes with many "built in" physiological complications that current medicine can't fully manage, effectively guaranteeing some amount of suffering that ends in early death, no matter how well we accommodate for them. They're not aborted to avoid accommodating, but to prevent suffering.

MontyCarloHall 2021-08-19 10:50:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>This is already the norm for disabilities requiring e.g. braille or a wheelchair.

I have never seen anyone argue against cures for blindness or physical impairment. Every visually/physically impaired person I know would be elated if their condition could be cured, and would have no issues with prenatal screening for their disabilities, if it were possible.

The only disabled community I know of where a not insignificant fraction of people oppose curing their disability is the deaf community, and it is nonetheless an extremely controversial position to take.

noneeeed 2021-08-19 13:20:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I've always felt the defensiveness/unease from some in the deaf community is understandable, even if I think fitting kids with things like implants is a good idea. Being deaf, certainly up to the widespread use of the internet in the last couple of decades, meant that you were essentially cut off socially from mainstream society.

The vast majority of hearing people have no interest in learning sign-language unless they are related to a deaf person. You are, in a sense, a perenial foreigner in your own land, surrounded by people who you cannot communicate freely with and never will be able to (unlike a migrant who can learn the language). So you form communities with other deaf people with who you can communicate freely. Deaf culture has become something more distinct than simply a community of people with a shared experience within a wider culture, it's much more isolated.

Obviously hearing loss is on a spectrum, with varying levels of remediation available from aids and implants to lip-reading and speech training so the above is a generalisation. But especially for adults, things like implants are not a panacea, you don't suddenly hear perfectly. I have a friend who uses a combination of an implant and an aid, but talking with him still requires continuous extra thought and consideration to make sure he can follow me, and that I can understand his speech. A noisy pub or a free-flowing multi-person conversation with everyone butting in is still incredibly isolating for him.

The internet has changed a lot of this from what I've been told, with so much culture being online and in text, deaf people are able to interract with hearing people much more often and freely (and on equal terms) far more often, even if they have many of the same issues IRL that they have always had. But the seperation remains, and it's mostly a result of the hearing world's almost total lack of consideration or effort to accomodate (see the absense of a sign-language interpreter for UK government announcements as an example).

zozbot234 2021-08-19 12:41:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> To my understanding, the argument made by autistic rights advocates is that people with the condition could usually live like anyone else, if society open-mindedly accommodated for them.

I wonder what's appropriate "accommodation" for a very low functioning kid whose idea of a good time is banging their head against the wall over and over again. A padded room, most likely? Many "autistic rights" advocates simply ignore and dehumanize these kids.

Sprocklem 2021-08-19 16:23:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The answer, as I understand it, is to provide another method of stimming that doesn't cause physical harm to the child.

dooglius 2021-08-19 11:55:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Braille and wheelchairs are the equivalent of a cure for autism, as I envision it. Why do these not count as "avoid[ing] our shared responsibility of accommodating for differences, by erasing the differences"?

> They're not aborted to avoid accommodating, but to prevent suffering You don't think people who want to "cure" autism are also motivated by this?

codr7 2021-08-19 12:16:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It's a spectrum that goes from simply different to disabled.

The question in my mind is who is going to write all the software once we've cured all who could do it well.

imtringued 2021-08-19 10:06:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Isn't down syndrome discrete? Either you have it or you don't. You create a test for it and then you screen based on the test.

How does that work with a spectrum? Where is the cut off? What level is "dangerous"/"dysfunctional" enough to warrant an abortion?

DaedPsyker 2021-08-19 08:45:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]

In Northern Ireland there was a debate on that, a down syndrome activist had campaigned against it which was readily taken up by parties that had opposed abortion in the first place. I'm not sure if it passed fully or just the first stage but there was a bill introduced a ban on non-fatal disabilities.

gambiting 2021-08-19 08:51:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That's exactly what happened in Poland few months ago. Constitutional Court has outlawed all abortion based on fetal defects, no matter how severe, as a basic human rights issue. The only remaining allowed situations for abortions remaining in Poland are when the life of mother is in danger, or if the pregnancy is a result of rape - but there are forces working to get that second exemption removed as well and it's likely that it will go through our constitutional court.

sokoloff 2021-08-19 09:57:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It depends on how you see autism. If we develop a universal therapeutic cure for cancer, that would eliminate “people with cancer” but not by eliminating those people.

Developing a pregnancy screening for “fetuses pre-disposed to cancer” may have an entirely different mechanism of reducing cancer and one that many people (myself included) would find far more troubling that the therapeutic cure above.

MontyCarloHall 2021-08-19 12:52:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Why would you be troubled by this? Consider Li-Fraumeni syndrome (LFS), which is caused by germline loss of a specific tumor suppressor gene. People with LFS are basically guaranteed to develop cancer by age 60 (>90% chance), with a 50% risk of getting cancer by 40. There are many other similar hereditary genetic disorders, some of which are exceptionally awful and basically guarantee that one will develop childhood cancer (e.g. Turcot syndrome).

I see absolutely no downside to prenatal testing for such horrible diseases, all of which have a clear-cut genetic basis. Nobody has issues with prenatal screening for Tay-Sachs disease; why should genetically unambiguous severe predisposition to cancer be any different?

sokoloff 2021-08-19 13:11:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Concrete example: Many people (about 1 in 400*) have BRAC1 or BRAC2 genetic markers that leave them with higher likelihood to develop certain cancers. I don't see that as justification for eliminating those gene lines from the human genetic diversity.

We did prenatal testing. We didn't do it for no reason and there were test outcomes that would have led us to terminate the pregnancy. Elevated risk of breast cancer would not be among them.

* - Among Ashkenazi, the rate is about 10 times higher.

s5300 2021-08-19 08:19:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> What does "white washed form of eugenics" mean? Legitimately curious!

Having the underlying intention of eugenics, but not outright saying "my true goals are eugenics"

In his example, Autism Speaks - it is fairly well known amongst autistic people/those on a neurodivergent spectrum/those who truly love/accept their autistic children/autistic people in general, that the organization, at it's head and with a majority of those who identify as members of it, are really people who are frustrated/unhappy/mad and/or absolutely terrible at coping with the fact that they had an autistic child & otherwise wish they'd have never been born. Their goal is not to accept autistic people as who they are or try to push for the general public (or perhaps "their agenda being") to accept them as who they are, but to outright eliminate the existence of what we know as Autism as a whole, which can politely be called "curing"

A more simple yet slightly less correct by "proper definitions" idea of what this entails is "being an asshole, but really, truly, wanting people to not think/be able to go "hey you're an asshole""

It's sort of like the Susan G. Komen charity, and as hard to explain as to why they're actually really fucking bad organizations to the average person - most people over the age of, say 15-20(?) likely think of Susan G. Komen foundation when they think of Breast Cancer or vice versa. The fact of the matter is, which can be easily seen on "charity rating websites" that document the entirety of various charities financial reports (legally attainable to the public per US law I believe, or something close to that) among a few other things, that Susan G. Komen doesn't actually do much for Breast Cancer at all from a funding/research/finding a cure perspective, but is entirely a financial grift for those at the helm of it. There are many, many better Breast Cancer awareness charities to donate to, but the average person will just think Susan G. Komen, and unknowingly put their money right into the pocket of grifters. It's been a very well known thing... for many years now, and legally they've gotten away with it by maintaining that they're simply "an awareness organization" - and, one could go on to argue many things about whether or not that could be legitimate and the money they're funneling to themselves is "earned/not malicious" for far too long.

tl:dr Susan G. Komen people are a bunch of dicks, but you won't know that if you don't look into it, so most people will probably think badly of you if you say "Susan G. Komen are a bunch of dicks" , just as somebody may think badly of you if you say "Autism Speaks are a bunch of dicks"

Hope this helps, and hope I don't upset too many people with this.

AllegedAlec 2021-08-19 11:22:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Their goal is not to accept autistic people as who they are or try to push for the general public (or perhaps "their agenda being") to accept them as who they are, but to outright eliminate the existence of what we know as Autism as a whole, which can politely be called "curing"

Yes. It's a mental disorder. You can try sweettalking what it is, but mild versions of autism are already insanely disruptive, both to the parents, but also to all other children and people that are forced to interact with them, for example in a classroom setting, where any autistic kid will take more than their fair share of the teacher's attention. But god forbid if you have a child with low-functioning or severe autism. You might as well give up all plans you had for the foreseeable future.

sidlls 2021-08-19 14:45:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]

As opposed to the juvenile delinquents, impoverished kids who don’t have access to tools for basic hygiene like running water or electricity (that was me at various points during my school years), and various other issues taking up “more than their fair share”?

What you’ve identified isn’t the autistic kids’ fault, it’s the miserly taxpayers’, incompetent admins’, and corrupt/spiteful politicians’, who don’t adequately fund or organize our public school systems.

AllegedAlec 2021-08-19 14:48:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> As opposed to the juvenile delinquents, impoverished kids who don’t have access to tools for basic hygiene like running water or electricity (that was me at various points during my school years), and various other issues taking up “more than their fair share”?

No, in addition to.

> What you’ve identified isn’t the autistic kids’ fault, it’s the miserly taxpayers’, incompetent admins’, and corrupt/spiteful politicians’, who don’t adequately fund or organize our public school systems.

It is though. Their unique blend of disability makes them inherrently unsuitable to any task that involves a group of other children. That's not to say we should blame them for it, but this is not something you can reasonably fix by throwing money at education.

I'd like to emphasize though that I meant the schooling issue as one of the many examples you could pick where autistic people are both at a disadvantage and are a detriment to the group. Please don't get stuck on this one example.

sidlls 2021-08-19 15:08:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You’re not even wrong.

wizzwizz4 2021-08-19 12:48:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> for example in a classroom setting, where any autistic kid will take more than their fair share of the teacher's attention.

Ah yes, the classroom environment, where children are not treated like people. Woe betide somebody objects to that!

“Mental disorder” – how is that defined? Saying “mental disorders are bad, autism is a mental disorder, therefore autism is bad” is the non-central fallacy, so obviously you must have a better argument (and I just can't see it). But remember: homosexuality used to be considered a “mental disorder”, as did women wanting the vote (I'm not joking!).

I posit: “mental disorder” is just a word for people who diverge from what society considers typical (or, cynically, acceptable) variation in what people are like. Some of that variation is bad, I won't argue with that. Most of that variation is absolutely fine.

The way society is means that any atypical variation is bad, because society punishes it. If not for that punishment, much variation would be a non-issue.

AllegedAlec 2021-08-19 14:30:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Ah yes, the classroom environment, where children are not treated like people. Woe betide somebody objects to that!

They don't object. They throw tantrums because they didn't get a 2 week advance warning of something happening.

> “Mental disorder” – how is that defined?

DSM-V: a syndrome characterized by *clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior* that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning.

Mental disorders are bad by definition. Psychologists don't put behaviours in their diagnostic manuals for nothing. Autism is in there for a reason. At its mild end it's a hurdle. At its severe end it's absolutely debilitating for the sufferer and their entire network.

> I posit: “mental disorder” is just a word for people who diverge from what society considers typical (or, cynically, acceptable) variation in what people are like. Some of that variation is bad, I won't argue with that. Most of that variation is absolutely fine.

I suggest you go read through the DSM. A major criterium for each mental illness is that the personis hampered in their function by it.

dcow 2021-08-19 08:18:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Not the GP, but they seem to be frustrated at the frankly inhumane characterization pushed by a non-trivial group of upper middle class privileged (aka white washed) parents whereby autism is considered a disease or generic defect than needs correcting (loosely “eugenics”). The between the lines implication is that these parents choose this worldview either a) because parenting an autistic child can be tough, and these people, in their privileged nature, expect it easy, or b) they are so privileged they’re Karen/Ken level blissfully oblivious (arguably braindead) about how their outlook might be interpreted by autistic people, because, you know, it’s a spectrum and most of us fall on it somewhere. Or it’s both. Really makes you wonder which cognitive profile is truly um.. retarded.

hoseja 2021-08-19 08:54:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That's an absolutely wrong way to interpret the wording. The author was clearly saying: "this is eugenics but wrapped in an illusion of decency". That's what "white-washing" means. Your explanation doesn't seem to make sense and is shifting the intended meaning.

One could of course argue that most of medicine is "white-washed eugenics" and point to similar efforts by, say, deaf people to view cochlear implants as a bad thing but that's not the topic here.

AllegedAlec 2021-08-19 11:23:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> autism is considered a disease or generic defect

It is.

loriverkutya 2021-08-19 12:59:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It’s considered as a mental disorder, not a disease or a genetic defect.

AllegedAlec 2021-08-19 14:16:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That's bandying words. Mental disorder, illness and disease are used pretty interchangably. Furthermore, there's oodles of literature on ASD susceptibility genes.

AussieWog93 2021-08-19 08:58:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Most "people with autism" have the tactical understanding to realise that policing others' language and enforcing political correctness is more likely to backfire than lead to acceptance.

IntelMiner 2021-08-19 11:38:35 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Speaking as a person with autism. I don't think it's implicitly "problematic" (as your terminology would deem it) to ask how to be described to other people