Hugo Hacker News

The Zettelkasten Method (2019)

bodge5000 2021-08-19 07:30:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Time for the daily/weekly/monthly note taking and productivity thread!

On a serious note, I actually like these threads. Earlier in the year I decided to look into better note taking and task management, and it became an entire month of me gradually becoming more and more stressed about it. HN was actually a great source for this, mostly because a lot of the people on here seem a bit less "into it" than dedicated sources, and help bring me back down to earth.

In the end, my solution was simple. Stop trying. Of course, because I get a bit obsessive over this kind of thing (who could have guessed that a man who spent an entire month thinking about note taking can be obsessive), I couldn't just stop. So instead, I set myself a reminder to come back to it in a month, knowing full well that by then I'll be obsessed with the next thing and will keep putting it off.

I write this in case anyone else is going through the same dilemma. Just take a break, get a notebook where you can jot down ideas for how you will jot down ideas, set a reminder, and move on with your life. Unless your enjoy this sort of thing, in which case, have fun :)

lkois 2021-08-19 09:19:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I've found the perfect notebooks for me are A5 spiral bound dot grids. Fairly compact size, unintrusive binding. The dot grid forces less structure than lined, but isn't the wild west of blank.

A few months ago I also looked into a bunch of note taking methods, even bought a similar A5, spiral bound, pre-formatted organizer and thought it'd be perfect for organizing my days. It remains unused except for a couple of lines where I began to note the days tasks, then crossed them out and tried to start again the next day.

But a dot grid purchased around the same time is filling up very quickly with odd chicken scratchings of work notes. The only hint of structure are dates scrawled wherever I happened to be starting from that day. Any very important things get circled or marked with an asterisk

smarx007 2021-08-19 11:14:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I have since improved on a similar setup by using B5 notebooks with margins (to punch holes) and "filing stripes" [1]. It allows me to take notes of different kinds ("odd chicken scratchings of work notes") just by opening a new clean sheet (at a cost of occasionally wasting a clean page on the reverse side of a previous sheet) and then tear the sheets off and file them neatly (I use the stripes upside down so that an append "operation" is less costly).

For long-running projects, I also use A5 notebooks that are pre-partitioned at a given % (I use 60-70%). The idea is that you go over your old notebook with "odd chicken scratchings", count the number of pages spent on each topic, calculate the ratios and multiply them by 70%*NUM_PaGES. Then you allocate this number of pages in the new (clean) notebook and put tab stickers on each section. I also leave around 4 pages for the TOC in the beginning of a notebook. It's just 2 sheets, but the ability to go back and put an extensive TOC later helps a lot when you refer to a finished notebook. With a bit of patience, you can but together a perfectly ordered TOC in a completely messy notebook (by doing one pass over all notes before writing down the TOC and grouping them by project). I also tried keeping notes on paper and writing down the TOC digitally in my Evernote to keep it searchable.

Regarding spiral binding, I find it too flimsy. If you damage the spiral, flipping pages would cause damage to the pages. I prefer hardbound notebooks. I use fountain pens and previously used expensive paper but since the pandemic I tried Idena [2] and it simply blew me away with its high quality and ink resistance (except for some rare inks) at such a low cost (but I had to give up the dot grid).

Ultimately, I am convinced that all of this has a limit and a Zettelkasten method of sorts is needed for a long-running knowledge base project.

[1]: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B004F69CRC [2]: https://www.amazon.de/Idena-209281-Notizbuch-kariert-schwarz...

gennarro 2021-08-19 11:56:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I recently experimented a bunch a ended up simply using a set of composition notebooks[0]. These are cheap, classic, and they prevent pages being torn out (which I was prematurely doing when I thought I was done with a thread).

[0] https://unsharpen.com/composition-notebook/

Tomte 2021-08-19 12:06:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Currently I'm using blank A7 index cards, with a fold-back clip. A bit like the Hipster PDA.

I'm not sure I'll stay with that, but so far it looks good. I like the thick paper, the wide availability and the low price. I can reorder stuff, I can take single index cards out, and I don't regret throwing cards away.

amimetic 2021-08-19 14:28:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This "Dev builds perfect note-taking system which only stores info about building note-taking systems": https://www.theolognion.com/dev-builds-perfect-note-taking-s... is well timed

2021-08-19 15:10:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]

bodge5000 2021-08-19 15:17:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Also somewhat relevant

https://xkcd.com/874/

Edit: Apparently not relevant (I still think it is), or someone spends their day doing just this and isn't happy that its being pointed out. Either way, they're not happy

twic 2021-08-19 13:54:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Who is the audience for these threads?

The only time in my life i've taken substantial quantities of notes was when i was a student. When i've had a job, the learning i do isn't the kind where i'm making copious notes.

Are there a lot of students on HN? Are there a lot of people doing out-of-hours study? Do people make lots of notes at work? Is this productivity LARP?

AlanYx 2021-08-19 15:56:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]

To a large extent it probably depends on the nature of your work. I found that once I transitioned to more horizontal roles at work, taking good, organized notes became more essential.

I don't think the specific system matters all that much though. The recent popularity of Zettelkasten is not really about systems per se as much as it is about recognizing that being able to refer to other things, or tell what other things refer to the current thing, is valuable. For people who just sort their e-mails into Outlook folders and have never thought more deeply about any of this, it is often a helpful shift in one's mental model.

pionar 2021-08-19 14:11:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]

ADHD sufferer here, taking notes is ESSENTIAL.

I don't have a system though, just a series of OneNote notebooks that I organize when I can get to it.

bodge5000 2021-08-19 14:54:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Can only speak for myself of course, but I'm not a student, nor are my notes for work (I do take notes at work, but they really dont need anything resembling a system at all).

These are more so notes for personal projects, ideas I have, things I need to do/todo lists, that kind of thing.

The basic idea is to try not to hold everything in your head, because it limits your ability to think clearly if your stressing about not forgetting stuff. I don't know how true that is, but I can say that for me I'm less stressed about something if I know I have it written down somewhere, even if I never come back to it. Its almost like I make it future-me's problem, rather than something I need to deal with now.

bikingbismuth 2021-08-19 14:42:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I had this realization after my second attempt at implementing Zettelkasten. Most of my job is managing people. I take notes and to-dos, but nothing on the scale that ZK facilitates. Even when I do IC work, I rarely take in depth structured notes.

gglitch 2021-08-19 11:06:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

To forestall premature optimization about notebooks or any form of linearity, I start with looseleaf paper.

bodge5000 2021-08-19 11:36:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

For me it was actually the opposite, I went with a small, bound notebook so I couldnt obsess over how things are arranged and what goes where and what goes in the front and so on. Basically its the most basic, limiting system I could find, short of carving my notes into stone

Obviously that rigidity has its flaws but not to worry, I'll deal with that later. Or at least thats what I tell myself ;)

hnrj95 2021-08-19 14:27:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

org-roam is kind of a port of this type of tooling to the org ecosystem in emacs, and i’ve found it extraordinarily helpful both for design/architecture on the job and for learning things, both rote and otherwise

dang 2021-08-19 06:33:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Past related threads:

Org-roam-UI – graphical front end for exploring your org-roam Zettelkasten - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28025491 - Aug 2021 (44 comments)

My Second Brain – Zettelkasten - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25802277 - Jan 2021 (103 comments)

Introduction to the Zettelkasten Method - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24916536 - Oct 2020 (73 comments)

Luhmann's Original Zettelkasten Digitalized - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24794569 - Oct 2020 (6 comments)

Remembering what you Read: Zettelkasten vs. P.A.R.A - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24251068 - Aug 2020 (62 comments)

Zettelkasten note-taking in 10 minutes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23445742 - June 2020 (124 comments)

Stop Taking Regular Notes; Use a Zettelkasten Instead - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23386630 - June 2020 (300 comments)

Ask HN: Thinking of using Zettelkasten , recommend software/platform - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22979257 - April 2020 (5 comments)

Luhmann's Zettelkasten - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22085837 - Jan 2020 (83 comments)

Zettelkästen? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21208196 - Oct 2019 (90 comments)

dredmorbius 2021-08-19 12:43:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Maybe the "Lists" page needs a Zettlekasten entry ;-)

https://news.ycombinator.com/lists

Hrm .... Actually, a "perennials" listing might have some value. I'm not entirely sure how to execute that, but listing keywords / topics / posts that occur with 1) some frequency and 2) high levels of engagement, limited to say, the top 30--100 entries, might be of use.

There's the past related threads "past related threads" search:

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

dSebastien 2021-08-19 12:26:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Awesome, thanks for sharing the list ;-)

chrisbai 2021-08-19 16:40:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

My Zettelkasten and secure note-taking tool is Passfindr. My sketch book is a Moleskine notebook.

Most of my notes are URLs, micro-notes, ideas, login credentials for online and other accounts, addresses and everything between. Lots of micro documents. Some of the notes are 20+ years old. Finding these notes and finding them fast is crucial. Passfindr does that with ease and I get information faster than anything else. Fast searching/finding matters. Once you get the idea behind the internal about: commands, you can even enhance the searching and finding capabilities and build your own Zettelkasten.

sorokod 2021-08-19 07:42:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The focus on technical solutions, Roam vs. Obsidian vs... obscures the fact that regardless of the software - maintaining a useful, up-to-date, well cross referenced corpus of knowledge is a lot of effort. The effort must be constant and ongoing, few will have the stamina to keep it going.

agos 2021-08-19 15:02:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

this is uncomfortable but true. I see these perfectly organised Notion setups with all the bells and whistles and then I realise that it's about the same work as tending to a medium sized garden

WA 2021-08-19 06:24:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The verbosity around Zettelkasten baffles me. It is a simple system, but most posts explaining it are like 5,000 words long.

gexla 2021-08-19 06:45:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Seems like we see this everywhere. Bob is highly productive and comes up with a "system" which he uses to be productive. Bob probably would have been productive with any other system, he's just a productive guy. Joe reads Bob's book and picks up this system thinking he'll be just like Bob. The story ends with Joe giving up on his dreams and taking a day job entering data into spreadsheets.

Bob was smart though, he made his system look like magic and a cult developed around it. Now Bob has many fans, and the top of the ponzi-scheme is the people who have learned to speak the magic. These masters sell courses while the followers work to learn the magic, correcting and debating each other on Twitter.

Fredvk 2021-08-19 07:04:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I feel like i have been Joe before and still am to some degree, are you just born as bob or are there actual fundamental things one can do to be more like bob ?

gexla 2021-08-19 07:40:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The best I have been able to tell is that productivity is like lifting weights, where you have to be always changing up your routine to "shock" the muscles into growth once you hit your plateau. Productivity is a series of brain hacks to keep yourself from falling asleep at the wheel. Like with a relationship, you have to always be doing new things to keep it interesting (don't stop dating your significant other.)

The value of stan systems is...

1. Take notes (documentation) on things.

2. Refer back to those notes (duh, might come in handy later when you find yourself doing the same thing.

3. Keep these notes in the same place.

Do ONLY the above and you probably get enough benefits to be worth it without dropping out because you failed to find the one true way.

Sounds stupid, but the hours I could have saved myself by writing things down for future reference add up. I can't just simply link to documentation, because the time I save is by documenting the spaces between the documentation. Stuff the writers didn't think to write because they already knew everything. But I'm not doing this simple thing if I have already said f*ck it, I give up, because I found the sword in the stone but it didn't choose me. I can't be king, so I go back to filling out spreadsheets.*

andi999 2021-08-19 07:38:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Currently conscientiousness is considered part of the big 5 which seem to be stable through your life. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits

I couldn't find if it can be trained during bringing up of a kid.

parkersweb 2021-08-19 07:23:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Absolutely. In fact I have a book that can teach you to be more Bob-like in just 7 simple steps ;-)

andi999 2021-08-19 07:38:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Too many steps. What about 3 steps?

tharne 2021-08-19 14:49:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I see a business opportunity here. Although I might undercut you and write a version that only requires 2 steps :)

michaelcampbell 2021-08-19 13:25:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

So, "agile", then?

hellothere1337 2021-08-19 06:48:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Seems like an underlying pattern of humanity. It happens with Agile, scientific methodology, even religion. A person reaches a truth through an earnest desire for truth and then everyone else tries to copy him as a shortcut to reach the same truth.

arkitaip 2021-08-19 10:05:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

lol there actually ate zettlekasten consultants out there. The same type of people who teach you how to develop a second brain...

binnyva 2021-08-19 12:43:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]

So true! This has bugged me enough to create a introduction to Zettelkasten myself - just one page - https://binnyva.com/zettelkasten/ (wanted to keep it under 500 - but it went to 700 words).

Too many my friends are getting the idea Zettelkasten is complicated. When anyone express interest, I make it a point to tell them its a very simple concept. The complication is more in creating the behavior of taking notes rather than in using the system.

chelmertz 2021-08-19 07:40:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Try reading the GTD book. What could have been a flowchart, maybe bundled with some potential downsides/gotchas-and-how-to-avoid-them, somehow became this nonsense 300-page sleeping pill.

orzig 2021-08-19 09:45:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I liked the abridged audiobook FWIW

ceilingcorner 2021-08-19 09:53:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

People like creating systems more than they like implementing them. Hence the popularity of military strategy books as compared to the number of real generals.

2021-08-19 08:41:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

hellothere1337 2021-08-19 06:35:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Cant make courses that require thousands of dollars, blog posts, an entire online brand based on simple principles.

CraigJPerry 2021-08-19 05:55:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I tried hard to like this, i still have my “second brain” collection in onenote (which worked surprisingly well across linux, Windows & mac) but i don’t add to it anymore.

However PARA has just proven more ergonomic and far less time consuming for me. https://fortelabs.co/blog/para/

1. I don’t waste time trying to eek out atomic thoughts, PARA is a more pragmatic idea - if some bit of knowledge proves useful it will get incrementally refined

2. It works exceedingly well if your productivity system is based on GTD

3. I don’t waste time trying to link things sufficiently, instead i dump the folder of reference material in the active project using it. So simple, and quite a satisfying “cheat”

All this said, it’s like time management. I’m less convinced that there’s a “right” answer than i am that there is a wrong answer and the wrong answer is not to have a strategy and just let the tidal wave of digital artifacts wash over you.

disabled 2021-08-19 06:05:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There is some obscenely expensive program for that (I have tried to search for traces of it online). I should do an advanced search again, using key words from the YouTube video below. The course is here: https://www.buildingasecondbrain.com/

Anyways, there is this guy who is really good at hacking life who describes it and took the course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP3dA2GcAh8

Anyways, his channel is interesting for sure: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoOae5nYA7VqaXzerajD0lg

He was also #1 student in psychology at Cambridge as an undergrad.

Anyways, chances are the course is ideas plagiarized from somewhere else. That's why I have searched for the source. I found a good written source for finding key words to do advanced search queries to find the original source: https://www.rylncoaching.com/post/why-i-have-a-second-brain-...

I found high quality illustrated notes on it, too, which will be really helpful for locating wherever the course material is originally from: https://maggieappleton.com/basb

For searching text of books with advanced queries, the best place is here (world's biggest online library): https://www.bookshare.org/search

Google Books is best for previewing books.

dSebastien 2021-08-19 12:52:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There's a nice summary of BASB here: https://miro.com/app/board/o9J_lEwGSa8=/

disabled 2021-08-19 15:37:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Thanks. The board is extremely helpful in finding stuff. I really appreciate it.

I did a search on Bookshare (which I have access to due to having a print-related disability).

So far, there is a lot of common words with "Understanding Information Retrieval Systems" by Marcia Bates

You can download it here: http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=40869A904ABC59F242AA50E8...

But, I don't think that this is what is being copied. But, it could be.

I would not be surprised if mosaic plagiarism is going on, where there is copying going on from a different book for each section. We shall see. I will keep searching.

2021-08-19 15:52:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]

nojito 2021-08-19 11:49:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The real productivity experts are the ones who make their revenue optimizing their actual day job and not hocking productivity advice online for views.

The best productivity tool is interviewing successful people.

rubslopes 2021-08-19 11:58:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Unless hocking productivity advice online makes you good money. Check Ali Abdaal channel on Youtube.

mongol 2021-08-19 06:16:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Did you take the course?

disabled 2021-08-19 06:36:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Absolutely not. But, I am really good at catching other people's plagiarism, including people who make entire livings off of such grifts. This course has a lot of obvious red flags of that, and I am curious where the original material came from in Creating a Second Brain.

This is one example of me finding some severe plagiarism where someone makes an entire living off of it: this Language Master "course" (https://www.languagementoring.com/courses/master/order/) which costs 990 EUR is basically this guide, "What do you need to know to learn a foreign language?": https://www.wgtn.ac.nz/lals/resources/paul-nations-resources...

Basically, the entire basis of her course is that above guide, but she creates video lessons for each section of the above linked guide with worksheets for each section (which you fill out to the videos). The only content that she adds that is substantiative in terms of work is language learning resources for X Y and Z languages, in terms of inputs/outputs.

npunt 2021-08-19 06:51:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Tiago Forte has been working on these ideas for many years in the open on his blog (Fortelabs, the one OP posted) and Building a Second Brain is the course he built atop that. From what I have seen of it, its original work and some synthesis of past ideas, just like most things.

It's weird to see you do these quick Google searches and speculate its plagiarized without any substance to back your argument or awareness of the work he's been doing for years now.

mongol 2021-08-19 08:18:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Funny, because the course seems to be exactly about that. In his video you linked, he quoted Picasso "Good artists copy, great artists steal".

yesenadam 2021-08-19 10:06:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This sounds very similar to a paper version of what I do with LaTeX PDF books. I constantly am typing and pasting stuff into a notes .txt file–every idea I have, anything I don't want to forget, anything I learn, URLS, names of books/movies etc. Then every few weeks I move stuff from the notes file to a place in a LaTeX PDF book, mainly the current year's book, then others split off as they get big enough, e.g. programming languages, mathematics, my programs, my essays etc. I put lots of pictures, and the books look lovely. (I find links between stuff isn't often necessary, as the hierarchical structure is so clear, and so easy to change around. But hyperlinking any 2 things is easy.)

It did take me about 3 months to master LaTeX and the common packages enough that I don't have to give it a thought these days.

Before that, I spent 25 years filling notebooks with ideas, notes, diagrams, drawings, maths, etc and never looking in them again, because there was no way of organizing them. Everything was just lost and forgotten.

aaldrick 2021-08-19 16:38:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This sounds right up my alley - one question: do you use this books are reference in the future to help cement your learning? I feel like I would also end up never looking in them again just like you mentioned with the physical notebooks.

dsabanin 2021-08-19 15:49:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Anyone looking for a good note taking solution, similar to Roam / Obsidian / Notion, but with a much better native macOS experience needs to check out https://www.craft.do/.

It's incredibly well made and is being developed at a crazy pace. A real pleasure to use and they have Mac, iPad, iOS and web version with real-time collaboration.

Edit: I forgot to mention the calendar sync! Really neat way to attach a note to calendar days or events. Especially nice when used with recurring events, as it keeps the note associated with them throughout their lifetime.

kkoncevicius 2021-08-19 11:33:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I don't get these methods. So it's a note taking system with hyperlinks between them. OK. So what if we made it digital - then it would be like HTML, right? Now, since more notes is better - what if we also let other people write notes and add them into the same library. Oh look, we just invented the world wide web.

What am I missing here?

slightwinder 2021-08-19 12:38:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Don't you mean WikiWikiWeb? Because World Wide Web is a bit more than a linked library of notes. Especially today when we have youtube, social networks and webapps.

But what you are missing is the cargo-cult of the youth which strife for a guide to imprison their thoughts. This method is really nothing new, not even innovativ. It originates from the same ideas which created the html and wikis later. But the last hype around hypertext was 20 years ago when wikis were new and hyped, and that didn't last long for technical reasons.

And now we have a new generation who rethinks the same methods again and create new software from them, which can finally fullfill the wishes which where 20 years not possible because of limitations in hard- and software. This is good in it's own, but the hype and ignorance is really funny in it's own. Especially if you are german and know the background better than those people who throw around words which they barly understand correctly, nor know it's history.

henrikeh 2021-08-19 11:46:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There is a big difference between writing meant for public distribution and personal notes. The point of a Zettelkasten (or any notes) is not to build a comprehensive encyclopedia, but to support and augment your work.

I don’t necessarily agree either that “more notes is better” as an absolute statement.

mongol 2021-08-19 12:57:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Not sure you are missing anything. It sounds like a curated and personal miniweb.

caser 2021-08-19 15:51:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]

If anyone is interested, I'm currently starting a weekly ZK meetup on Zoom w/ a few founder friends who want to dive into the method.

Format is:

* 15 mins - check in on your workflow * 30 mins - work on your ZK (write notes, refactor, etc.) * 15 mins - set ZK goals for upcoming week and discuss tactics

If you're interested in joining, drop me a quick note to the email in my profile with a bit about yourself and experience in the method!

andi999 2021-08-19 05:54:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Tried understanding Zettelkasten for a while, searched the internet, bought one/some books. But it was always too light on examples. I need full beefed out examples (like a 100 pages Zettelkasten) or let's say 10 pages. Of course you can say one doesn't need it, but isn't the value of any method to be benificial if done as designed?

This article seems to be the closest of having good examples.

__bjoernd 2021-08-19 06:23:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You might want to check out the Obsidian.md forums. Obviously, focusing on Obsidian as a note taking tool, but they have sections where users demonstrate their workflows: https://forum.obsidian.md

pps 2021-08-19 08:19:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You can see the process on videos from zettelkasten.de guy: entire playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHwtkAtdkx1IZoI7FZf1X... and something new that I didn't watch yet, but it looks like it's also walkthrough, from the other guy from zk.de: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_MJYtWr1vE

sdoering 2021-08-19 06:33:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

If you are able to read handwritten German, the whole Zettelkasten [1] of Niklas Luhmann [2] is online available. with an additional explanation of the method [3].

[1]: https://niklas-luhmann-archiv.de/bestand/zettelkasten/zettel...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niklas_Luhmann

[3]: https://niklas-luhmann-archiv.de/nachlass/zettelkasten

andi999 2021-08-19 07:24:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yes, but I fear that this is actually too much Infos (and I am not interested in his field)

sdoering 2021-08-19 09:17:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I strongly believe one can't understand this method and the sheer amount of effort necessary to consistently tend to this system and keep it alive (like Luhmann) did without the deep explanations and also at least diving into the examples of Luhmann's zettelkasten as it is digitalized.

Nonetheless - I also do not believe, that a lot of people would benefit from the zettelkasten system. It has in my opinion a very narrow target group that would massively benefit from this method, while for others it would only be a lot of work with limited benefit.

Luhmann profited from his lifelong work on the Zettelkasten (he was an avid reader and did extracts long before his university career). But once he started his university career he was able to produce on such a deep level and with such a high frequency, because he had up front invested massive amounts of time into this system.

So if one is looking for a productivity tool, I am not sure that zettelkasten is the right tool in one's belt. It needs massive investment up front and pays interest only later.

dSebastien 2021-08-19 12:57:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I personally look at this method (and others) as means to help keeping track of discoveries and knowledge in general. I believe that it is useful for all knowledge workers, but especially for academics & content creators.

andi999 2021-08-19 16:53:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Looks to me only good for academics who can discover new things from old texts. Not sure how it help Stem research.

qudat 2021-08-19 11:45:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

For anyone interested, Ive catalogued a list of knowledge management apps that I found for productivity: https://listifi.app/u/erock/knowledge-management-apps

Kappa90 2021-08-19 13:47:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

We're developing Saga [0] and we have many users using it for Zettelkasten, although it's not our main value proposition.

Why: Saga automatically links pages one to another, so it builds your wiki/knowledge system automatically for you.

You can also group pages in "Collections", which are smart tags similar to the Zettelkasten tagging method, which allows users to easily recollect and find notes.

I welcome anybody to try Saga for Zettelkasten and give us feedback on how we can make it a better tool for this use case!

[0] https://saga.so

reidjs 2021-08-19 10:50:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I write a lot and for most of my career I just used a Notes.md file synced across devices with iCloud.

I forked foam https://github.com/foambubble/foam A few months ago and have been using it as my note taking system. It works great even if you rarely backlink or tag, just every now and then you should clean out your inbox.

gego 2021-08-19 11:33:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Some tools should be mentioned here, too.

http://zettelkasten.danielluedecke.de/en/ has great resources

https://www.zettlr.com/ is new and also useful for a Zettelkasten like setup

gethuen 2021-08-19 06:52:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Roam[0] is great for it. I think they were rejected by YCombinator numerous times, and they are a Clojure company.

[0]: https://roamresearch.com/

threatofrain 2021-08-19 07:40:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I'd also recommend Obsidian to anyone who doesn't like the everything-is-a-bullet-point aesthetic.

https://obsidian.md

benrbray 2021-08-19 07:32:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Athens [1] is an even better free and open source alternative, started by someone who was rejected [2] for a Clojure job at Roam! Athens was even accepted to YC [3].

[1] https://github.com/athensresearch/athens [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26316793 [3] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/athens-research

2021-08-19 07:40:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

martin-adams 2021-08-19 12:54:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]

If anyone wants a visual breakdown of the Zettelkasten method, I have created two popular videos on YouTube

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqKspwjXu18 (overview)

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziE6UExsOrs (step by step with examples)

Sorry for the shameless plug, but reading the comments on here I see these videos might be able to help make it more tangible.

SMAAART 2021-08-19 13:54:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I have been kind of doing this all along, little that I knew it has a name.

Following this thread.

FrozenVoid 2021-08-18 07:45:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Zim is what i use for notetaking, its essentially tree-like notes allowing expanding ideas and focusing on stuff without any paper limits, you can also attach images/files to notes.

sydthrowaway 2021-08-19 05:48:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I tried this, but the system falls apart when I want to jot down a few notes quickly. Maybe I should give reMarkable a try.

Jwarder 2021-08-19 13:23:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I wonder how much trouble with notetaking stems from people trying a one size fits all method. Personally, I have three tiers of notes.

A physical notepad for meetings, random ideas, test results, that sort of thing. My goal is to write down items when I suspect I'll forget them in the next 30 seconds.

At the end of the day I'll take 10 minutes review what I've done, with the physical notes as a starting point, and log my activity and open questions per project. My goal at this point is to keep enough context to answer the inevitable "WTF was I thinking?" in a few days. Usually just taking the time to outline things means I can remember the key points.

Finally there is a team wiki where I record details per project. Feature wishlist, customer requests, work with other departments, Q&A. My goal here is to make sure my replacement isn't totally lost after I get hit by a bus.

tastyminerals2 2021-08-19 07:50:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]

When someone says that they used this and that technique to increase their research productivity, I always think about TRIZ and the fact that so few ppl know about it.

dredmorbius 2021-08-19 14:05:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Helps to provide at a minimum some context:

TRIZ (/ˈtriːz/; Russian: теория решения изобретательских задач, teoriya resheniya izobretatelskikh zadatch), literally: "theory of inventive problem solving " is “the next evolutionary step in creating an organized and systematic approach to problem solving. The development and improvement of products and technologies according to TRIZ are guided by the objective Laws of Engineering System Evolution. TRIZ Problem Solving Tools and Methods are based on them.”[1] In another description, TRIZ is "a problem-solving, analysis and forecasting tool derived from the study of patterns of invention in the global patent literature".[2] It was developed by the Soviet inventor and science-fiction author Genrich Altshuller (1926-1998) and his colleagues, beginning in 1946. In English the name is typically rendered as the theory of inventive problem solving,[3][4] and occasionally goes by the English acronym TIPS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIZ

tablet 2021-08-19 08:20:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

TRIZ is extremely hard to apply beyond engineering areas. I tried to bend it to soft.dev with no luck.

say_it_as_it_is 2021-08-19 09:18:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Notes with hyperlinks.