Hugo Hacker News

Chip shortage: Toyota to cut global production by 40%

Scoundreller 2021-08-19 14:46:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Many countries have a funny concept of strategic industries.

In mine, dairy is a strategic industry that is coddled by government so that we can have a local source. But every country thinks that so there’s foes and allies that can supply us UHT or powder milk on a moment’s notice. And if our milk supply disappeared tomorrow, everyone over 1y could substitute with 10000000 different things for nutrition.

Cars are another. Every country props up its auto industry, so why worry about a domestic supply?

Meanwhile, there are critical components, pharma ingredients or other inputs built in 1 factory in a country we could likely end up in a big dispute with.

Just goes to show that industry protection has nothing to do with risk/dependence on that product, and everything to do with picking and choosing which industries are important voting bases.

jvanderbot 2021-08-19 15:37:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

How much would it cost to set up TSMC inside US borders? One president cycle? 4 F-35s? One SLS? A nuclear submarine?

According to this page, sorting by cost, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat...

the most expensive fab is 33 Giga$. TSMC is 17G$. pennies on the dollar in the bucket on our 1-3Trillion infrastructure bill.

Make america fab again.

EDIT: it appears this is in the 2T infrastructure bill. https://www.eetimes.com/biden-ups-ante-to-50-billion-for-chi...

SavantIdiot 2021-08-19 17:06:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Part of the reason fabs are spread out is capitalism: if you manufacture the part in the country, you don't pay import taxes (e.g., Intel's Ireland fab debacle).

Another part is lax environmental laws. Hillsboro Oregon is embroiled in a suit with Intel where Intel dumped 100x the fluorine into the air that they claimed when D1X was first pitched. Don't need to worry about that stuff in Asia (for now).

Also, lead time. The x-ray litho machines take years to build and test. There are only two companies that make Intel's testers, and the lead time is years. So a "quick fix" isn't possible.

Speaking opinion: in the long term, it is mostly rich people trying to get richer that caused this. If greedy CEOs and shareholders would just be humans for once and think about the future we wouldn't have this trainwreck. That ain't ever gonna happen.

alfalfasprout 2021-08-19 17:02:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

We're doing it but obviously Taiwan isn't going to give up their smallest die processes (only older processes) since it keeps the US at least unofficially allied with them.

phreeza 2021-08-19 15:45:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I assume that is if you already have the know-how. Starting from (almost) scratch would require more upfront work, right?

jvanderbot 2021-08-19 15:55:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The US isn't starting from scratch. And presumably the total cost includes all the R&D cycles. TSMC was started by a Texas Instruments employee.

But, if we assume they were, just double the cost as a sign-on bonus for all the engineers and poach away.

This is problem that can be solved with money, and not a lot of it in the grand scheme of things.

dave_sullivan 2021-08-19 16:27:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Government can't make a website, let alone a chip fab. Talk to Intel and ask them why we've fallen behind. Do any VCs want to fund a direct Intel competitor? I doubt it.

Making chips seems to be quite a bit more complicated than making and launching rockets, I don't think even Elon Musk could do it.

jvanderbot 2021-08-19 16:43:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Just subsidize it. I'm not asking for the Fab Czar, I'm asking for the NSF, DARPA, and national subsidies for it. Accelerated permitting, tax breaks, tarif support, state vs national investments, accelerated green cards for key personnel, and price breaks for a "buy US Chips" initiative for the first 5 years until things get serious and exports ramp up. I'm spitballing over morning coffee, but come on, this seems obvious.

Exports won't offset operating costs here in the USA, but perhaps we could apply some ingenuity to that through national research investments and the ensuing startup ecology. The ancillary benefits of funding research and small business infrastructure around the big fabs would be huge.

Sandia national labs has a ~3.5 annual Giga$ budget! That's _entirely_ publicly funded and represents about half of TSMC's operating budget (https://investor.tsmc.com/english/encrypt/files/encrypt_file... , looking at 50% profit yielding ~12 G$)

zsmi 2021-08-19 16:48:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]

jvanderbot 2021-08-19 16:52:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yes. That's precisely what I'm asking for.

cma 2021-08-19 17:06:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

EUV LLC was already heavily funded by DARPA in the 90s and is why we are able to have export restrictions on ASML machines used by TSMC for the latest EUV nodes etc.

bumby 2021-08-19 16:38:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>Government can't make a website, let alone a chip fab.

Tbf, many (most?) government websites are built and maintained by private companies. Remember the ACA website debacle a few years back? The government was mad at the contractor for building a shoddy product. They claimed they would take action against them but I’m not sure anything happened. If the government should be held to task on anything it should be an inability to write good contracts or hold companies feet to the fire. I’ve heard civil servants are unwilling to to the latter because they don’t want to hurt businesses or are afraid of legal protests.

thedougd 2021-08-19 16:50:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The 18F group is more than capable: https://github.com/18F

dheera 2021-08-19 16:32:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Cost isn't the issue, it's that we have incompetent buffoons as presidents these days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuW4oGKzVKc

That's what a president sounds like.

theandrewbailey 2021-08-19 17:04:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It's not just incompetent presidents, it's incompetent politicians at every level.

Kye 2021-08-19 15:44:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Isn't TSMC working on expanding into the US?

cronix 2021-08-19 16:47:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yes, but from what I understand, it won't be the most advanced plant making the smallest feature sizes. Understandably, TSMC keeps a tight reign on their top-tier production methods, which is their reason for being #1.

It's also 3 years away from opening in AZ (2024). Then they have to fine tune the equipment and processes over x runs. New plants tend to have low yields until those processes are smoothed out and perfected. You don't just set up a plant and start churning out chips with 98% success rate at 5nm once the factory is built. It probably takes 5-6 years from construction start to churning out quality chips in numbers that are actually profitable.

datameta 2021-08-19 15:56:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]

They are indeed, in Arizona. First they are going to have employees train on-site in Taiwan (will get housing for themselves and their families for duration).

api 2021-08-19 15:59:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This makes it easier for the US to spin up more, since we gain more trained workers who understand these processes.

datameta 2021-08-19 16:12:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I thought similarly - this is true if we can have lossless knowledge transfer. I imagine we would have to put what is learned into practice before translating it into distributed knowledge for a US fab workforce.

nickff 2021-08-19 15:32:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Highly visible industries tend to get a disproportionate number of subsidies, because the population can relate to them, and politicians aren't that clever either. Film and television are good examples, and fishing tends to get a lot of attention too.

namelessoracle 2021-08-19 17:06:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Pretty much everyone understands that computer chips are needed for everything these days though.

The population can relate just fine. It's just there's no one rich and powerful who wants to make the investment that is making it an issue.

cutemonster 2021-08-19 15:08:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> picking and choosing which industries are important voting bases.

And on a bribes and corruption basis, to some extent, too?

For example, I never thought about what are the strategic industries, when voting.

throwawaygh 2021-08-19 15:17:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> For example, I never thought about what are the strategic industries, when voting.

You're clearly not a dairy producer in Wisconsin, a military contractor in Virginia/Maryland, or a property owner in Southern Pines, NC.

sandyarmstrong 2021-08-19 15:28:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yup! In 2008 I was in my first job, working for a defense contractor, and my boss seriously could not wrap his head around the idea of me voting for Obama. In his mind that should have gone completely against my own self-interest.

But he also saw the job as a lifetime career, which is partly generational and partly just a different mindset because a lot (most?) of the engineers there were former military.

I will say, though, that his mindset generally made for a very friendly and nurturing team experience.

diveandfight 2021-08-19 15:43:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Is there something uniquely strategic about property owners in Southern Pines?? If anything, based on my knowledge, military contractors would be the strategic play down there (just as in VA/MD).

throwawaygh 2021-08-19 15:45:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Camp Mackall, Fort Bragg, the complex around those two, and an officer corps/civilian contractor base that enjoys golf.

I was just giving it as an example of how whole tertiary industries that aren't directly part of the military-industrial complex will none-the-less vote (R) like their lifestyle depends on it, and for the same reason as contractors.

unityByFreedom 2021-08-19 15:16:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Indeed. The goal is to not have the government pick industries. Politicizing who gets aid to any greater degree would only serve to further subdue innovation.

mywittyname 2021-08-19 15:33:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Most voters aren't as rational as you are. Though, I suspect that you would not vote against your livelihood if it became a political topic.

West Virginia has "Friends of Coal" license plates. Indiana has IUOE license plates. etc.

kevin_nisbet 2021-08-19 15:21:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yea this is very interesting. I suspect another side to this though is I don't know that one country can easily or safely not participate in this chosen industry support.

Especially in capital intensive industries, say cars, all of the competing countries are propping up or bailing out their auto industries. So even if companies should theoretically die and get replaced, there is a structural disadvantage as the competition in other countries has an insurance policy against companies failing (bailout / subsidy / tariffs / strategic protection / etc).

quadcore 2021-08-19 16:21:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]

On that matter, I think (just a not-so-well-informed opinion but still plausible) most countries should urgently protect their software development industry and dramatically reduce taxes on those companies. Because the day US/China automated-production AIs will get to its prime, nothing produced in your county will have any value whatsoever beside land. Ferrari and Rayban? Near-zero market value tomorrow.

fsloth 2021-08-19 16:25:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

"Because the day US/China automated-production AIs will get to its prime"

I think this time is quite a bit far off. But eventually will have sourcing price of just the raw materials. That said and regarding your next point -

"Ferrari and Rayban? Near-zero market value tomorrow."

On this I disagree strongly. Current trend is that IP becomes constantly more important. So that while manufacturing costs for said items may tumble, IP laws likely protect the sale of items branded as such. And the price difference does not likely result in cheaper prices, but in a bigger revenues.

shadowgovt 2021-08-19 15:18:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Every country props up its auto industry, so why worry about a domestic supply?

War. In the event a war breaks out, a running auto plant can be re-tooled relatively rapidly into a light and heavy armor plant. It's not even a question of whether allies could supply tanks and troop transports; it's about having domestic capacity to make them because enemies could execute blockades and disrupt allied resource supply.

sonthonax 2021-08-19 15:20:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Is that still true now?

mywittyname 2021-08-19 15:37:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yes.

One scary fact that I learned is that, in war games between China and the USA, China almost always wins due to superior production capacity. Those $100B American battle carriers and $40MM advanced fighter jets can be taken out by $50,000 rockets/missiles produced at a rate of hundreds or thousands per day.

huge87 2021-08-19 15:49:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This is in line with my intuitions; do you have any sources so I can read more?

dylan604 2021-08-19 16:09:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

How many tomahawks does it take to destory these factories?

mywittyname 2021-08-19 16:36:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

So, apparently the best opening salvo is to take out USA comms satellites and that essentially cripples American offensive capabilities. Modern tomahawks are heavily reliant on comms networks to hit long-range ground targets.

Plus, any destroyer launching these at targets deep in Chinese territory will be within range of Chinese missiles. And, as we saw in Syria, Russian air defense systems are pretty effective against Tomahawks, and we should expect Chinese systems to be at least as effective.

zsmi 2021-08-19 16:55:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Probably not too many. But I wonder, are there more Chinese factories or Tomahawk missiles? I'm not totally sure. China is a very large country.

starfallg 2021-08-19 16:18:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The issue is that China needs energy and other natural resources to sustain production which the US and allies can effectively blockade. It always puzzles me why China is so antagonistic with its neighbours. Indochina is very difficult to invade, and the whole South China Seas situation means that China has no blue ocean access into the Pacific. In a global war, the only reliable lifeline into China is through Russia.

alisonkisk 2021-08-19 15:56:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Isn't the reverse also true?

lallysingh 2021-08-19 16:15:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yup, but that leaves you at a draw for existing assets and you depend on production capacity after that.

shadowgovt 2021-08-19 15:23:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Great question. It's still doctrinally true (i.e. governments believe it is true; it was one of the reasons cited for the US federal government buying key stake in domestic auto manufacturers instead of letting them go bankrupt during the real estate market crash), but whether light and heavy armor is actually of military worth in an era of drones and air power is a question I don't have the military training or knowledge to answer.

starfallg 2021-08-19 15:31:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yes, because heavy industry produces light and heavy armour, and heavy industry is also required to produce military drones and other weapons.

starfallg 2021-08-19 15:29:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That's the same reason why food security is so high up on domestic priorities also. If a country is dependant on other nations for food, then in case of war you just need to target their logistics chain to starve them into submission. All those subsidies make sense, if you view the nation-state as primarily concerned with its own survival.

flavius29663 2021-08-19 15:30:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]

this. If you look at all the strategic industry subsidies, you will see this common denominator. Corn in the US is stupidly subsidized, so much corn that it ends up in car tanks. But guess who will not have a famine even if the worst war + disasters strike?

Car factories might not make good tanks, but the mechanical engineers and tooling knowledge is invaluable and can't be scaled up overnight.

Same with solar panels, there's a reason both Obama and Trump imposed protective tariffs. One of the few areas both parties agree to. PV panels are the future of energy, so you need to have domestic factories no matter the cost.

jbay808 2021-08-19 16:37:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> PV panels are the future of energy, so you need to have domestic factories no matter the cost.

Another benefit of domestic factories is domestic innovation. It's much harder for an engineer coming out of university and going through their career working at an office computer terminal to ever make a breakthrough innovation, if they can't step inside the factory to see how things are really done.

If that factory is down the street, it's much easier to do an apprenticeship, get a tour, or chat with the manager about their pain points. If it's in another country, you'll have to schedule a formal visit and you'll probably need to be a very important customer for that to happen.

2021-08-19 14:49:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

unethical_ban 2021-08-19 15:28:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Indeed, there seems to be a difference worth noting between "industries that currently employ a large number of the population with little transfer of utility to other industry" and "objectively basic needs for a society".

I figure there are also different definitions of strategic depending on the size and capability of an economy. The US is large and geographically fortunate enough that it theoretically "could" be almost entirely self-sustaining if it set its mind to it. Fuel, semiconductors, transport, lumber, food, guns.

guerrilla 2021-08-19 15:37:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Indeed, there seems to be a difference worth noting between "industries that currently employ a large number of the population with little transfer of utility to other industry" and "objectively basic needs for a society".

Did you consider that it's because people need an income to survive? Employment is objectively a basic need for anyone who doesn't own sufficient capital being that they have nothing else to sell but their labor.

unethical_ban 2021-08-19 15:56:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I didn't say that keeping people employed was a bad thing. I was making a distinction in definition, not in value.

baybal2 2021-08-19 15:03:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]

How the essential farma became nearly 100% reliant on foreign manufacturers is I think the most exemplary case of this nonsense.

I read some year ago that there were laws in US which at least somehow discouraged the pharma from shipping manufacturing abroad, and it was the big pharma itself which lobbied these laws out.

This is how China held US at gunpoint in the early days of COVID — "Stay put, or we pull 90%+ of your antibiotics supply"

11thEarlOfMar 2021-08-19 13:16:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]

If you have a taste for irony, my company makes critical components for semiconductor equipment. If we can't ship, equipment companies can't ship new equipment. If they can't ship, semiconductor fabs can't increase capacity to meet the demand and solve the shortage.

We went line down last week due to shortage of a chip for our component.

In reality, the shortage is somewhat self-inflicted, like toilet paper a year ago, but for whatever combination of real demand + hoarding, we can't get chips.

throwawaygh 2021-08-19 13:48:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]

A negative feedback loop in semiconductor supply seems like a situation where a government should just step in manage the market a bit.

mathattack 2021-08-19 14:24:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Just the opposite. Need to let people raise prices to encourage slack in the system. Let’s prices settle where chip makers can produce new chips.

There are market failures where the government needs to step in, but this isn’t one. Even with climate change (where they should step in) the government can’t get to the point of saying it’s ok for gas prices to be high.

We don’t want the government to pick winners and losers when it doesn’t need to.

duncanawoods 2021-08-19 14:41:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It's a puzzle to me why companies like nvidia didn't just raise prices and instead left both customers and profit to the dirty world of scalpers.

I guess it's "brand damage" but I feel there would be something more fair and honest if in times of tight supply they ran their own ebay-like store and auctioned them off. It wouldn't feel like a price hike and prices could automatically settle as supply/demand reaches parity.

cronix 2021-08-19 17:05:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Some, like this MSI subsidary, were actually selling on ebay at scalper prices.

> MSI has admitted that one of its subsidiaries has been selling RTX 3080 graphics cards on eBay at almost double the MSRP.

> The controversy first appeared on Reddit, where users accused MSI of scalping its own RTX 3080 graphics cards on eBay under the name Starlit Partner. Since, it’s been confirmed in a Justia Trademarks listing that Starlit Partner operates under MSI Computer Corp and was first set up in 2016.

https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/msi-subsidiary-gets-caught...

2021-08-19 15:36:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

cinntaile 2021-08-19 14:50:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

They probably did, the only cards they produce under the Nvidia brand are the Founders Edition cards and those are sold for MSRP. Everything else is made by their partners and those cards increased in price.

duncanawoods 2021-08-19 15:02:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yes, soon after posting I realised I was referring to Asus/MSI/Palit etc. rather than Nvidia. It means either two levels of auction or the Nvidia chip sale is a % of the end unit sale.

cptskippy 2021-08-19 15:33:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Palit

I've never heard of this brand, are they big in regions outside North America? Or do they function as an ODM for other brands?

duncanawoods 2021-08-19 15:59:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It's a Taiwanese company around since the 90s. They may be more Europe focused with a German office. I've never heard a US reviewer mention them but in the UK, they offer cards cheaper than the other brands. Beyond that, I don't know much about them. I've bought a couple of their cards and never had an issue so they get a thumbs up from me for N=2.

mindslight 2021-08-19 15:15:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Need to let people raise prices to encourage slack in the system

You're assuming that increased profit margins will automatically increase supply chain buffers. But rather, the same incentive to hire too many financialists that "save the company money" will exist, and the extra profit margin will just go to increased dividends.

And increasing the supply chain buffers won't help much right now either, it has to be done during good times. In fact I'd say most of the shortage is from companies deciding to increase their buffers, in the same way as what happened to toilet paper. "Hoarders" and "speculators" are easy illustrations to point to, but the real demand comes from regular consumers silently buying twice as much as they usually do.

verdverm 2021-08-19 15:26:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> You're assuming that increased profit margins will automatically increase supply chain buffers.

I read GP's comment as increase prices to decrease hoarding, which in theory could provide the slack in the system. Problem might be that certain products may not be viable if prices get too high. Only those with sufficient margins prior.

s1artibartfast 2021-08-19 16:46:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The entire point of a floating price is that it increases until possible consumers drop off and some products are no longer viable.

It kicks low value products out of the market and prioritizes the high value products.

mindslight 2021-08-19 15:44:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I don't see that raising prices would make consuming companies want to stock up less. A company that requires an input to manufacturing is going to have a pretty steep price-demand curve for every individual component. Even if prices for one of their scarce inputs doubles, they're still going to buy as much as they can rather than risk shutting down their entire production if they run out. Since their competitors are feeling the same pressure, they'll just raise their own prices to compensate.

It's like foodstuffs during the early pandemic - when you finally found something that they had been out of, you didn't particularly care about the price, and you generally bought extra so you wouldn't run out if it went missing again.

jbay808 2021-08-19 16:56:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> they'll just raise their own prices to compensate.

That's how it works in econ 101, but not necessarily in practice. Prices on many goods are less flexible than commodities like oil and lumber, for many reasons. Manufacturers may be locked into fixed-price contracts or distribution agreements, for example. Or a scarce component might be shared across "budget" and "premium" product lines, but the budget line is too price sensitive to change so the premium product goes up 10x instead. Or the company just borrows money and eats the loss...

vmception 2021-08-19 14:47:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Exactly, its so weird that price sensitive recluses never just considered that GPUs were undervalued?

“Omg these [new market entrants] are messing up my ability to take screenshots of my framerate and never enjoy myself”

Well now its back to business use cases!

varispeed 2021-08-19 14:59:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Need to let people raise prices to encourage slack in the system.

The scalpers can absorb the rising prices until the desperate companies no longer can afford the increase. That will cause the market crash, which is not good for anyone. I think government should regulate that space so that businesses engaged in scalping could no longer purchase nor sell the chips.

s1artibartfast 2021-08-19 16:51:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>The scalpers can absorb the rising prices until the desperate companies no longer can afford the increase

The whole point is for manufacturers to raise the price until desperate companies/consumers can no longer afford it and don't buy them. Im not sure where scalpers come in. If prices are set high enough, scalpers can't make a profit.

freewilly1040 2021-08-19 15:05:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]

A “crash” in chip prices would be good for those buying chips

nicoburns 2021-08-19 14:45:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]

What makes you think the most critical uses have the most money to pay for chips? I'd imagine there's a lot of crappy (or in any case not critical) consumer products that have much higher margins.

s1artibartfast 2021-08-19 16:54:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]

IF the use is critical, then the user should be willing to pay more. If they can't, I would want to look into why and question how critical they are.

imtringued 2021-08-19 15:20:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There is more money in consumer markets because there are more customers, not because each customer can pay more. It's usually businesses that spend big on individual purchases.

HPsquared 2021-08-19 15:12:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Critical uses have the potential to support much higher prices.

throwawaygh 2021-08-19 15:10:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

1. Your comment doesn't even provide a prime facie argument against some forms of government intervention. E.g., we could let the market determine prices but mandate that fab equipment suppliers go to the front of the line.

2. Price is probably a red herring anyways. I'm willing to bet that fab equipment suppliers are losing out not on price negotiations, but on volume negotiations. I.e., they might even be willing to pay more -- even much more -- than other users, but can't buy in massive quantities so don't go to the front of the line.

3. Is there any (legal) mechanism at the moment that prevents chip makers from increasing prices?

4. Fab equipment producers are small consumers of chips but have such a disproportionately high impact on the rate of future supply. In the midst of a global shortage, we could straight up socialize 0.00...01% of chips produced every year and hand them out for free to fab equipment manufacturers without even effecting the short-term price dynamics. I'm not actually advocating this, but the assertion that earmarking a small number of chips for a particular high-value use fundamentally skew the market in the short-term is probably false.

5. Even if markets can eventually work in this case -- and for the record I'm convinced that this is a perfect example of contract negotiators being extremely myopic -- market dynamics have non-O(1) time complexity and the chip shortage is wrecking havoc on the real economy.

My comment wasn't suggesting price controls or socializing chip fabrication. It was suggesting that we very temporarily give special treatment to a very small consumer of chips that has an outsized impact on production rate, in the midst of a global chip shortage.

s1artibartfast 2021-08-19 17:08:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>It was suggesting that we very temporarily give special treatment to a very small consumer of chips that has an outsized impact on production rate, in the midst of a global chip shortage.

Why would we do that if the fabs themselves don't think it is worth paying their equipment manufacturers enough to afford their own chips?

Giving "special treatment" is a price control. It is forcing a transaction that otherwise wouldn't settle at that price.

1e-09 2021-08-19 14:31:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It is a positive feedback loop, not a negative feedback loop. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback.

robotresearcher 2021-08-19 14:54:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It’s negative WRT the chip production rate.

a9h74j 2021-08-19 15:07:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It does have negative external effects, as you observe, in the sense of a viscious circle. But even a viscious circle, mathematically, has positive feedback, resulting initially in a positive exponent growing against time, not a negative exponent damping out in time.

robotresearcher 2021-08-19 15:36:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Doesn’t positive feedback require a positive loop gain? Right now, not enough chips are available to make new chips. So the loop gain is less than zero, damping the output recursively.

throwawaygh 2021-08-19 15:43:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I'm also confused by the confusion here... probably naive pattern matching? Reminds me of TAing undergrad courses where you could get more than half the class to confuse "positive feedback" and "negative feedback" on a midterm by just giving examples where stability = bad :)

robotresearcher 2021-08-19 15:59:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Grandparent gives the choices of ‘positive exponent growing against time’ or ‘negative exponent damping out against time’. Here we have a positive exponent damping (reducing) the output over time, because it’s value is less than one, resulting in a negative loop gain. The Wikipedia article linked up thread defines positive feedback as having positive loop gain, and negative feedback negative loop gain.

2021-08-19 15:54:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

tbihl 2021-08-19 15:05:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

No, still positive. Negative feedback is self-righting, while positive feedback is amplification (to speak in very broad terms.)

throwawaygh 2021-08-19 15:32:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]

No! It's negative WRT chip production rate! I have a phd in controls and meant what I said; I assume roboticsresearcher also knows some freshman-level control theory ;-).

Stability ==== good in undergrad engineering, but not here. We DON'T want production rate to be stable when we have a global supply shortage! Here, a negative feedback loop is stabilizing the system in an undesirable equilibrium.

I.e., the function that's being controlled in "supply of chips", the stable state is "saturated supply", and the negative feedback loop that maintains that equilibrium is "starving chip fab suppliers".

(meta: people down-voting comments on control theory terminology by two different experts in this field at least makes me feel a bit better about the signal:noise ratio on the vote counts on my other comments in this thread ;))

saltcured 2021-08-19 17:00:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Only partially facetious here: you have mistakenly decided that it it clamps at zero. If we consider the hoarding aspects, the feedback continues into net negative chip availability. Before long, there will be roving gangs of looters taking back the chips you thought you already had! ;-)

alisonkisk 2021-08-19 16:02:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It's not stabilizing if the economy is in a death spiral of failing interdependent companies who can't produce machines for each other.

robotresearcher 2021-08-19 16:13:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]

In control terms it is. There’s a stable asymptote of ‘we made no machines today’ every day, until some external process breaks the dependency cycle.

2021-08-19 15:14:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]

eplanit 2021-08-19 14:33:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]

What experiences with which government would lead you to believe that bureaucrats -- most of whom have never run a company nor made a product -- would be capable of "managing the market"?

dfxm12 2021-08-19 14:46:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I'm not sure experience running a company is necessarily a good thing here, or at the very least, not pertinent. Wall St.'s and the American people's interests are not necessarily in line. The US' previous president ran some companies and did not really do a good job in this regard, either, wrt his trade wars.

mediaman 2021-08-19 17:08:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Seriously? You're using Donald Trump, who specialized in brand licensing and being a television character, as an equivalency to all the manufacturing engineers and supply chain specialists working to resolve the problems created by a global pandemic that's killed millions of people?

The amount of disrespect to highly skilled professionals in this thread working like crazy to respond to a massive exogenous shock, and then following it up with the idea that "well, the government should fix it" with no specific idea of how exactly, the government would fix it, is mind-bending.

eplanit 2021-08-19 14:51:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You're simply wrong. The US's economy was doing _great_ under the previous administration, and even top Democrats agreed that it was right to put strong pressure on China re: trade.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/392636-schumer-on-c...

dfxm12 2021-08-19 14:59:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Great for whom? Wall St. or the common American? Like I said, their interests don't necessarily align. Sure, maybe stocks were up (usually, not when Trump was threatening to shut down the government if he didn't get his wall, though), but that didn't trickle down to everyone and is far from a total picture of the economy. Also, your article doesn't support your claim. Schumer was praising Trump for being tough on China for the sake of being tough on China, not for managing supply chains well.

option 2021-08-19 14:55:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]

absolutely no. government interventions rarely (if ever) are helpful in managing supply and demand.

baybal2 2021-08-19 14:37:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> A negative feedback loop in semiconductor supply seems like a situation where a government should just step in manage the market a bit.

Unfortunately, no Western government can do it even if its life depends on it.

German trade officials for example went and completely prostrated themselves in front of Taiwanese govt, and TSMC, offering anything short of switching the recognition of China to Taiwan.

It bounced off without any effect.

It was only a blank cheque from USA that made them to even scratch, and that is still pending that cheque being honoured, and cashed out.

will4274 2021-08-19 14:14:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Why? Is the government better at inventory and/or supply chain management than the current players in the market? My experience with COVID tests says no.

bumby 2021-08-19 14:36:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

No, but the government can shoulder a larger risk than what the private sector may tolerate.

There's all kinds of examples, but aerospace is a classic one. There would be no airline industry or commercial space industry if the government wasn't willing to bear a disproportionate amount of the risk when these industries were nascent. There just wasn't enough market demand to incentivize the private sector to do so on their own. So the govt sets up an incentive structure that brings the risk to a level where the private sector is willing to partake. The government is also generally more tolerant of longer-term scenarios than the private sector.

MagicWishMonkey 2021-08-19 14:21:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

No one is saying the government should start producing chips, but they can offer financial incentives to encourage chip manufacturers to build fabs here instead of overseas.

dimitrios1 2021-08-19 13:50:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The solution to a market inefficiency isn't to involve a more inefficient entity.

blululu 2021-08-19 14:08:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This is a pretty axiomatic view that governments can never be as responsive or as efficient as markets. The more commonly accepted economic wisdom is that they are usually less efficient and responsive than free market forces operating under ideal conditions. There is a lot of room for market failures, inefficiencies and temporal dynamics to change the balance. The are plenty of examples of government regulatory bodies that have a nice anchoring effect on the relevant markets. The Federal Reserve Bank, for example, responds quickly to changing market conditions, looks at the data and intervenes at a speed that keeps pace with the rapidly fluctuating market it regulates.

abfan1127 2021-08-19 14:47:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The Federal Reserve hardly responds to market conditions. Their free and open printing of money is arguably the greatest risk to our economy. Milton Friedman has great resources on this, including a video series from the 1970s (based on clothing alone) called Free to Choose. Its on Youtube, amongst other places.

kube-system 2021-08-19 14:53:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Natural boom-and-bust cycles are a huge risk to economies as well, despite the fact that they're natural and don't have anyone for which we can point a finger at.

imtringued 2021-08-19 15:45:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I don't know what you mean by "natural boom and bust cycles" but credit cycles and other financial cycles are just a property of the money system. Alternative money systems do not have this property.

The cycles only make sense because people like and want them. I.e. they love the scarcity of money. For example, in a depression the return on money is greater than the return on labor, people logically flock to money rather than labor even though real wealth is eroding as people stop working.

nickff 2021-08-19 15:43:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Well, the Federal Reserve was originally devised to put an end to the boom-bust cycle... Well before the Great Depression.

If you're going to point a finger, the Federal Reserve is a very good institution to point at.

imtringued 2021-08-19 15:41:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I was looking for a comment like this:

http://rootbug.com/how-could-it-be-solved/taxing-money-throu...

Let me put it in my own words:

If republicans think that unemployment benefits compete with private businesses on labor, then I get to think that 0% interest money competes with labor for capital.

The fundamental problem is that the 0% lower bound combined with a deposit guarantee represents not only a minimum wage for capital. It also presents a job guarantee. A minimum wage doesn't guarantee you a job.

So yes, the Federal Reserve is not responding to market conditions at all. It's artificially holding up interest rates at zero or above. This is causing massive distortions in the economy that can only be fixed by a swiss-army knife of policies. Among one of the needed responses is "free and open printing of money". The world economy is already flirting with disinflation (a reduction in inflation). If you don't have negative interest rates you will need a whole load of "money printing" to keep the system standing in place.

The assumption that a scarce money system (i.e. guaranteed non negative interest) has a fixed velocity of money is absurd. Put interest at -5% and just watch everyone withdraw cash from their bank account. The velocity of cash would be basically be zero and the velocity of money on bank accounts would be extremely high. As the government is doing deficit spending all the money just piles up somewhere and ends up doing nothing. QE is even worse because you cannot spend centralbank reserves to buy groceries.

https://youtu.be/j5l_Oeg6kMo

Ok, let's do the negative interest thing. It sounds like a big hassle right? Just think about the benefits: The first step after negative interest ratess would be to adjust the inflation target to 0% meaning perfect price stability. Actually, you wouldn't target inflation at all because the negative interest rate completely replaces the need for inflation. You would target the CPI itself meaning your goal as the government would be to maintain a CPI of 100 for all eternity. Any deviation would become inexcusable. Meanwhile today inflation is a hack to make a broken money system work.

Don't blame the fed. Blame the money.

throwaway0a5e 2021-08-19 14:59:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It's unrealistic to expect people to hedge online comments about complex topics (like the one in question here) to the extent required to preclude "yes but" and "well akshually" type comments that complain about the lack of nuance. Yet despite these expectations being unrealistic everyone expects comments they disagree with to meet them.

nyokodo 2021-08-19 14:42:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> The Federal Reserve Bank, for example, responds quickly to changing market conditions

The Fed was established by Congress and the Chair is appointed by the President, however the Fed is still a private institution. That independence makes it a very different organization than what most people mean by government.

MagicWishMonkey 2021-08-19 14:18:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

We're in this mess due to our never ending quest for more "efficiency"

The government needs to recognize the fact that semiconductors are essential to national security and ensure we have the capability to produce our own.

bumby 2021-08-19 15:09:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I think you're right, but it's partly because we weren't couching the quest for efficiency in the context of risk.

I might be more time efficient by speeding everywhere, but that efficiency gain needs to be understood in terms of how much additional risk it incurs.

jimbokun 2021-08-19 15:30:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This assumes an efficient global market, without interference from other state actors.

If other countries are implementing protectionist policies, like keeping semiconductors for themselves or supplying other nations first to curry favors or improved relationships, for example, it might be in another nations interest to increase fab capacity with its borders to avoid being vulnerable to those political and diplomatic factors.

only_as_i_fall 2021-08-19 13:54:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Then what's the solution? Seems like the government is the only entity that can intervene if market forces are counter to supply chain resilience. This is partially the justification for agricultural subsidies in the US, so clearly there is precedent.

ortusdux 2021-08-19 14:59:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Toyota pioneered the "Toyota Way", which is now known as Lean or JIT manufacturing. JIT is famously susceptible to disruption from natural disasters. Over the short term, between disruptions, JIT tends to be more profitable than the alternatives. Over the long term, the market rewards companies that can handle disruptions. Basically, to answer your question, the market is punishing JIT MFG and rewarding resilience. Companies are watching it happen and learning from it. One indication of this is the current increase in inflation. Companies are switching from 1 month of inventory to 6-12, which is making suppliers scramble and driving up prices.

I am by no means against government intervention. Companies have short memories, and market forces will force eventually pressure a return to JIT. But now is the exact wrong time to intervene.

PaywallBuster 2021-08-19 14:06:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Apple approach, invest in your supply chain

Extra points by diversifying from China/Taiwan

In direct opposition, Auto makers approach of minimizing inventory and producing "just-in-time" caused them to be vulnerable to supply chain or big market shifts

ceejayoz 2021-08-19 14:17:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The article notes that Toyota avoided "just-in-time" supply for chips, and has benefited for a while from this. Their stockpile just ran out.

> New cars often include dozens of microchips but Toyota benefited from having built a larger stockpile of chips - also called semiconductors - as part of a revamp to its business continuity plan, developed in the wake of the Fukushima earthquake and tsunami a decade ago.

baybal2 2021-08-19 14:55:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Extra points by diversifying from China/Taiwan

Take a look on the linkedin jobs in Shenzhen.

The trend IS NOT towards diversification. In the last 5 years since Trump's election, US multinationals were increasing their presence in China, not decreasing.

Google for example said to open "a small representative office" in Shenzhen 2 years ago, now it's a full giant RnD centre in the Ping An Tower where they shipped all of Pixel's development.

Apple had RnD offices in China for more than a decade, but they barely acknowledged their existence. Their people in the Kerry Plaza were prohibited by their contract to even show their employment for Apple in their LinkedIn profiles. Their Shenzhen RnD centre is where AirPods were developed, along with many other iPad, and iPhone sub-assemblies. Apple's VR goggles project had its start in Shenzhen as well.

Amazon had no presence whatsoever in China besides a failed Chinese Amazon.com launch. They left China, and then returned to move the whole of their Kindle, and Echo device development to Shenzhen. Now they are working on something rather cryptic there. Some suggest VR goggles of their own design.

Facebook... absolutely bizarrely opened their RnD centre in Shenzhen amid the COVID, just a floor below Google I heard.

Dell, Microsoft, Nvidia, Qualcomm, Intel — all conventional hardware makers were here since nineties, but I think they really doubled down on China recently as well too, to one up the dotcom upstarts in hardware.

PaywallBuster 2021-08-19 15:13:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

We're talking about supply chain here

e.g. Foxconn investing in capacity outside of China (India) and Apple being part of it (as customer)

baybal2 2021-08-19 15:21:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Having your essential RnD office shut down, if something happens to/in China, would not be any much less ugly, and disruptive than having your access to microchips shut down.

In other words, the Silicon Valley is still going all in on China, despite 4 years of Trump, public scorn, trade war, rising costs etc.

In other words, they really gave up on any vision where they don't critically depend on China, and can run with critical assets in US only.

Causality1 2021-08-19 14:08:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The nightmarish results of agricultural subsidies in the US is an excellent reason to not involve the government in the chip shortage.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 2021-08-19 14:51:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

But agricultural studies are working as intended?

The U.S. government has decided that it's in our national security interest to remain a net exporter of crops.

If World War III broke out and all the borders shut down, America would still be able to feed herself. The U.K. wouldn't. There would be mass starvation in much of the first world, and people would say "the government should've done something."

All the diabetes is a pretty rough unintended consequence, I'll give you that, but shifting some chip fabs to our shores as a matter of national security doesn't sound like too bad of an idea.

bumby 2021-08-19 14:31:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Can you elaborate on your point?

While I agree there are definitively some downsides to ag subsidies, I think the real question is if the interventionist downsides are worse than the non-subsidized downsides. As bad as they are, I'm not sure that incentivizing unhealthy food is actual worse than famine.

only_as_i_fall 2021-08-19 14:14:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Sure, but pontificating on government inefficiencies doesn't actually improve supply chain weakness either.

wuliwong 2021-08-19 14:40:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The comment was a response to a suggestion that the solution to the chip shortage was government intervention. I don't consider giving a evidence to the contrary of an argument as pontificating.

only_as_i_fall 2021-08-19 14:56:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Ok but point to the part of that comment which was evidence?

Claiming that the results of ag subsidies have been "nightmarish" with no further elaboration or citation does nothing to advance the conversation, it's simply a strongly worded opinion.

guerrilla 2021-08-19 14:57:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That's one way to look at it. Another is that those are side effects of having stable and affordable food prices. The solution being talked about in this thread of simply raising prices would literally starve people to death if applied to that case.

adventured 2021-08-19 14:52:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Then what's the solution?

Time and capital investment. It's like this generation of people have never heard of production and supply disruptions, and were oblivious to such things being possible. Frankly, this doesn't matter very much, it's not a critical situation.

The auto market malfunctioning short-term due to a pandemic doesn't present a strong argument for government intervention. Tesla can't make batteries fast enough, there isn't enough supply, its restraining their auto production, the government must step in and fix the problem! It's nonsense. The government should not step in every time there is a short-term problem in a market.

Toyota won't sell as many vehicles. So what.

I know, I know, but what if people have to make due with a three year old vehicle. What if they have to suffer and endure those vehicles being made to last for five or six years. Ten years! The horror.

Toyota won't die. Time will pass, during which necessary investments and adjustments will be made. Supply will be increased. The problem will be fixed. It's as simple as some time and capital investment. The companies that maneuver the best will come out ahead, gaining an advantage on their competitors. And the world keeps on spinning.

Toyota has generated something like $90-$100 billion in operating income the past five years. They have the resources - and then some - to fix the problem. If they choose not to or can't that's their own incompetence, their competitors will eat their lunch. Never feel bad for a corporation earning $20 billion a year. If they can't get their production corrected, someone else will figure it out and reap the benefits.

It does not matter as much as is being portrayed. This is not an important problem and does not warrant the government burning its time and resources to step in and fix (assuming they can help at all). Governments have a lot of other far more important things to be focused on.

JKCalhoun 2021-08-19 15:00:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Toyota won't sell as many vehicles. So what.

Thousands of employees lose their livelihoods as factories shut down?

freewilly1040 2021-08-19 15:15:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Permanent layoffs are an unlikely response to a temporary supply disruption, and unemployment aid covers any short term furlough

only_as_i_fall 2021-08-19 15:09:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Good thing we don't use semiconductors in anything more important then.

Slartie 2021-08-19 14:57:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That sounds nice, but a singular entity within a government, entrusted with the necessary power to regulate the relevant parts of the market without too much coordination overhead with other government entities, is actually much more efficient at resolving market inefficiencies than the free market. Case in point: production of vaccines.

That's also obvious: the inefficiency in governments originates largely from coordination overhead between many competing entities with overlapping responsibilities. Self-regulating systems like markets do not eliminate that overhead, they just use other means of coordination that trade some of the complexity overhead for a time overhead - instead of having to coordinate a complex set of rules, you now have to give the system enough time to "find" its stable state. But when time is of the essence, an intelligent, singular entity without the need for coordination with anyone besides the entities to be regulated can always outcompete the self-regulating system when it comes to short-term stabilization (though not necessarily with regard to long-term stabilization, but that's not the issue here).

freewilly1040 2021-08-19 15:18:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The government did very little in managing vaccine production other than act as purchaser, how is this an example of them managing a market?

Slartie 2021-08-19 15:40:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The US government regulated critical parts of the supply chain of raw materials and preproducts in order to ensure that US manufacturers have no sourcing problems. It then compelled the manufacturers into exclusively servicing the US purchase contracts first before fulfilling competing contracts from other global buyers with any of the finished product produced on US territory.

I'd call that quite a lot of "market management". But as everyone could see it resulted in the fastest vaccination ramp-up worldwide (excluding Israel, which was a bit faster, but is also much smaller than the US and which had its own way to get "preferred" access to vaccine produced in the EU).

ramesh31 2021-08-19 13:54:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Ah yes, the Herbert Hoover approach.

MagicWishMonkey 2021-08-19 14:20:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I wonder how many of these people rant about how bad the government is while using GPS to navigate their way to work on government funded roadways.

evilduck 2021-08-19 14:28:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

On the DARPA derived internet, no less.

nradov 2021-08-19 14:42:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

DARPA funded the basic research. Then the actual Internet was largely built by for-profit private sector companies. That hybrid model seems to usually be the most effective for major new innovations.

JohnWhigham 2021-08-19 15:03:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]

DARPA funded most of the grant money used by research entities to create the various parts of the IP stack. That's not "basic research". Simply put, were it not for DARPA, we wouldn't have the Internet of today. We'd probably have something like it, but something a lot more closed off and walled garden-esque.

adventured 2021-08-19 15:18:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

They can't even manage a trivial task like maintaining roads and bridges properly.

You could have hardly picked a worse example than the government roads system (including our thousands of dilapidated bridges), which is in absolutely horrific condition and is a humiliating example for the government. It's the opposite of a good example.

That's all due to lack of funding, one might suggest? They're not lacking for funds. They spent our money on blowing up other countries and then (occasionally) attempting to rebuild them. Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Korea and 497 other cases of meddling and foreign adventurism. There rests $10 trillion in infrastructure money. No, they have had plenty of our money to spend, and they chose to squander it.

What ever would we do if we didn't have those hyper incompetent clowns to manage our roads.

GPS is trivial. If Russia can do it, various US private corporations could easily do it just the same.

anotherman554 2021-08-19 15:25:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]

US private corporations maintaining roads implies a society like the one depictive in the Robocop movies. It's fun to see you prosing that unironically.

abfan1127 2021-08-19 14:48:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]

As if those things wouldn't innovate in the market? Or because 1 thing came from the government, then all things the government touches are gold?

bumby 2021-08-19 15:13:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This take might have some hindsight bias.

While a lot of industry seem obvious and worth the investment today, when they were nascent that wasn't the case. Would GPS exist if private companies had to fund the rocket and satellite research just to tell you where you are on the map? Or would the aircraft industry exist?

Most of those types of high-risk, nebulous reward (at least on short-to-near-term timescales) industries are predicated on government investment. SpaceX, as great as they are, probably wouldn't exist if they didn't have NASA as a customer.

abfan1127 2021-08-19 15:28:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]

it certainly does have hindsight bias, on both sides. The Satellite TV and Radio industries spend the money to launch.

Back in the 90s (during the age of early GPS), Motorola (iirc) tried to launch a satellite phone company too.

NASA isn't that big of a customer. DirecTV was a huge consumer of rockets. As it turns out, SpaceX doesn't sell to them because they own their own rocket company.

bumby 2021-08-19 15:41:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>The Satellite TV and Radio industries spend the money to launch.

Correct, but this is an after-the-fact understanding. They spend money to launch now because the industries are no longer nascent and being launched on platforms designed around government investment. The key to my point is that the government spends money when the industries are young and risky to develop platforms. If those platforms work out that helps the private sector have a less risky path down the road. This is why telecoms weren't rushing to develop rockets in the 1960s.

>NASA isn't that big of a customer.

This is very much the same thing. Early on, NASA was really the only SpaceX customer and NASA helped keep them from going bankrupt [1]. In addition, NASA made early launches more palatable because the government is self-insured. Government contracts help usher along young, risky companies until they could have a less risky business model that the private sector feels more comfortable with. It's very similar to aerospace development over 100 years ago with the Wright brothers and Curtis vying for Army contracts. Without those contracts, they are as much hobbyists as entrepreneurs.

[1] https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/elon-musk-says-nasas-1-5-billio...

ramesh31 2021-08-19 14:53:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The free market can do a lot when it has the basic requirements to operate, but the point is that government spending is the only solution when we end up with a chicken/egg problem as the OP pointed out.

Veliladon 2021-08-19 12:27:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Toyota was one of the few (only?) companies to keep a large stockpile of chips on hand to continue production in case of a supply interruption. They kept something like two years worth on hand.

I guess 18 months of doing the extremely heavy lifting for the whole industry has taken its toll and now they're in the same boat.

dd36 2021-08-19 12:32:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I thought Toyota invented not doing that.

doikor 2021-08-19 12:48:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

After the 2011 earthquake they came to the conclusion that for some hard to source parts you have to keep a big stockpile.

Basically if a part can only be produced by one or two parties there is too much risk of that source going away and disrupt everything else. This also applies all the way down the chain so if you got part A that can be made by 20 contractors but if all of those contractors depend on the same source then that part is also on the list of "stockpile this part enough to get over most disruptions"

Spooky23 2021-08-19 17:08:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Wall St in general and Jack Welch in particular embraced the “avoid owning anything” at any cost model to juice the books.

jnorthrop 2021-08-19 12:40:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yes, they more or less invented the concept of just in time delivery, but they also suffered supply chain issues after the Fukushima earth quake. After the latter incident they made the risk calculation that inventory of some parts was worth the expense.

Ekaros 2021-08-19 12:38:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

And then they invented that maybe they should keep poorly sourceable parts at hand. And chips are those. Unlike nuts, bolts, metal and plastics. Which you can easily find replacements for.

The-Bus 2021-08-19 14:59:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Plastics have actually experienced a pretty significant shortage this year, with resins and other components being hard to source[1]. Polaris, for example, would build their entire vehicle except the seats, then build and attach them once the plastic resin for the foam became available[2].

1) https://www.ntotank.com/blog/resin-material-market-shortages... 2) https://www.wsj.com/articles/supply-chain-bottlenecks-drive-...

lmilcin 2021-08-19 13:12:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It is different to keep large inventory of everything because you are inefficient and can't function without it and different to decide to stockpile specific parts because of perceived potential risks while being efficient with everything else.

zeke 2021-08-19 12:56:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

One big advantage of low inventories is you do not have to fix or trash lots of parts if they were made out of spec. In the case of chips the odds are they are all good. It is just the cost of ownership but not the cost of refitting.

throwaway0a5e 2021-08-19 13:14:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>One big advantage of low inventories is you do not have to fix or trash lots of parts if they were made out of spec

Instead you either stop/slow production or shove them in your products and hope for the best.

hef19898 2021-08-19 13:45:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You know a function called Supply Chain Management exists, right?

throwaway0a5e 2021-08-19 13:55:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It should go without saying that there are nuances in implementation. What I'm describing here is a fundamental tradeoff of JIT systems. If you get the wrong thing delivered it throws a bigger wrench into things because you don't have the buffer. Can you make this rare enough that the amortized cost is low enough to make JIT overall cheaper? Of course, that's why everyone does JIT.

Jtsummers 2021-08-19 14:16:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> If you get the wrong thing delivered it throws a bigger wrench into things because you don't have the buffer.

JIT, in Lean, does not mean no buffer, it means as little of a buffer as you can get away with. If you have issues with delivery like this on a regular basis, then you'd increase the buffer size (at least temporarily) and also take your suppliers to task for sending the wrong thing over and over.

The buffer size should be increased if any upstream supply issues exist that regularly cause a shortage. Ideally, you should address those issues themselves, but if you have and they can't (or won't) be fixed then you increase your buffer to accommodate reality. However, the shortage is itself a signal. Too high an inventory permits supply issues to persist without being addressed for a long time because you never get the signal about the issues with them (the downstream production slowdowns).

hencq 2021-08-19 16:51:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> JIT, in Lean, does not mean no buffer, it means as little of a buffer as you can get away with.

Yeah, spot on. One of my college professors used to compare it to a river with rocks in it. If you want to safely sail on the river, you can either a) keep the water level high enough or b) remove the rocks. In a production system inventories/buffers are the water level and variance is the rocks. The philosophy of JIT is to remove as much variance from your system as possible so you can lower your buffers. If you have identified areas of high variance you're forced to keep buffers until you've removed enough variance to lower your buffers.

cptskippy 2021-08-19 15:57:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> JIT, in Lean, does not mean no buffer, it means as little of a buffer as you can get away with.

Eh... I would argue that JIT means making that buffer someone else's problem.

I was doing EDI at a logistics firm that contracted with Seagate who provided HDDs to Hitachi for their SANs around 2006. Hitachi was doing JIT for their manufacturing, Seagate however was just speculating Hitachi's demand and literally stockpiled HDDs in this firms warehouses geolocated next to Hitachi's factories.

We would pickup stock from Seagate and ship it to these warehouses where they would remain Seagate's property until Hitachi requested it, then we would simply transfer ownership to Hitachi.

Interestingly, we used rail shipping as a buffer to reduce warehouse size by sending freight on slow/cheap/indirect routes.

Jtsummers 2021-08-19 16:04:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]

In this case you have two buffers. Seagate/you have a buffer for the outflow based on expected consumption rate. Hitachi almost certainly has some buffer of their own. This is not unusual with physical goods where you have the transportation time and cost to consider (which you/your employer took advantage of).

If Hitachi couldn't consume your delivered HDDs as fast as they were delivered and anticipated any kind of delay/disruption could ever happen, they'd have some buffer of their own.

cptskippy 2021-08-19 16:46:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

In this case Hitachi didn't have a buffered supply. The warehouses were located literally across the street. The products were palletized at Seagate's factory in quantities matching Hitachi's product lines then delivered to the warehouse in a cadence closely matching Hitachi's consumption rate. So when Hitachi placed an order, a pallet was pulled and the ownership of the serial numbers on that pallet were transferred to Hitachi as it was delivered.

The logistics firm was the buffer allowing Seagate's product rate and Hitachi's consumption to be asymmetric in nature.

hef19898 2021-08-19 16:00:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The last bit works, as long as the slow transportation is closely controlled. I tried it once, in the end warehouse space was cheaper.

EDIT: What you describe sounds more like VMI, vendor managed inventory, than JIT. Both require half way reliable forecasts and collaborative planning so to worl properly. Have to agree so that both solutions tend to push inventory risk to suppliers. Done correctly, overall inventory does decrease so.

cptskippy 2021-08-19 16:34:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]

JIT and VMI go hand-in-hand, they aren't mutually exclusive. Implementing JIT is to impose VMI on your suppliers.

The interesting thing was that Seagate avoided managing inventory by outsourcing to the logistics firm. The stock was technically Seagate's until it was ordered by Hitachi but the logistics company took immediate possession as pallets rolled out of the factory.

> The last bit works, as long as the slow transportation is closely controlled.

It didn't need to be controlled, just scheduled. You knew you need x units by d. The factory output n per week, so you could stagger shipments by way of different lines.

All of the inventory was tracked by serial numbers and it was interesting to watch it move because supply was often delivered to the warehouse out of order or shipments weeks apart arrived simultaneously.

hef19898 2021-08-19 16:37:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The way I used was VMI to avoid the limited flexibility of JIT, bit yes both concepts tackle the same problem. What you describe sounds like a lot of fun to run on a daily basis, would have loved to do that!

akg_67 2021-08-19 12:38:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]

They changed after 2011 earthquake when several factories couldn’t continue production because parts were not coming from factories impacted by earthquake.

danparsonson 2021-08-19 13:28:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I don't think that's exactly true and actually may be a common misconception - see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1JlYZQG3lI for a much better explanation than I could provide.

gameswithgo 2021-08-19 13:09:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Chips are small, don't age fast. Make sense as an exception to the rule.

bluGill 2021-08-19 14:00:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Chips also go out of production suddenly (with only a couple years warning - which isn't anywhere near enough time to replace them all). thus any major manufacture has stockpiles of chips that are no longer in production that need to last until production of the widget switches to new chips and have enough left over as spare parts for existing widgets.

davidrm 2021-08-19 14:14:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Chips also go out of production suddenly (with only a couple years warning...)

No they don't, automotive semiconductors suppliers have an "obligation" to manufacture the component for at least 15 years, which makes managing the production output planning, spare parts etc. much easier. It's not like walking into your supermarket and finding out that your favorite brand of chocolate is no longer available. There are minor exceptions, and sudden changes in the demand might affect the immediate availability, but at the very least the part is almost guaranteed to be produced for 15 years with defined notice policies. Microcontrollers don't have a pin-compatible drop in replacement when they get discounted, but many different ICs do, like power supplies, transistors etc., so discounting them is not a big deal.

e.g.: https://www.nxp.com/products/product-information/nxp-product...

> Participating products are available for a minimum of 10 years from product launch (15 years from product launch for many products developed for the automotive, telecom and medical segments), and are supported by standard end-of-life notification policies.

bluGill 2021-08-19 14:25:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Some of them get that, and car manufactures have learned the hard way how important that is and so demanding it more. However there are still a lot of parts where they can't get the 15 year supply in anything that meets the other requirements.

hef19898 2021-08-19 13:33:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]

JIT is probably the most mis-understood supply chain concept.

Kiro 2021-08-19 14:12:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

How?

hef19898 2021-08-19 14:25:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Because people equal JIT with close to zero buffer inventory. JIT is basically a concept of defining the correct and minimal buffer. If that's close zero, cool. If it's more than zero, cool as well. It also puts a lot of emphasis on lot sizes and lead-times. No one in the right mind would implement JIT for stuff involving sea freight without buffer stock close to production.

wheelinsupial 2021-08-19 15:56:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There are pre-conditions for products to be set up as JIT. As you mention, short lead times, but also things like high quality, high availability, and others as well.

Toyota and a lot of the concepts that come out of Toyota are ideals to strive for. It doesn’t mean everything is like that, which is hard to understand from just reading the lean literature.

dgellow 2021-08-19 12:38:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That changed after 2011 earthquake

2021-08-19 12:40:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

varispeed 2021-08-19 15:43:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Power 101: Preach one thing, do the opposite

It is smart to project to the world that just in time manufacturing is effective and then stockpile parts. This will get you ahead of competition if there is a problem like we experience now.

minikites 2021-08-19 12:47:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This is a misunderstanding of lean manufacturing. Lean is not about eliminating every stockpile, it's about thinking through your supply needs and only stockpiling what is necessary.

nszceta 2021-08-19 13:14:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Were manufacturers stockpiling what was unnecessary before lean manufacturing? It's an absurd notion that anybody would stockpile things without consideration of inventory costs.

Jtsummers 2021-08-19 13:51:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yes, they were.

Think of each stage of the system, not just the components you bring in but also the partially assembled components you produce along the way as well as the finished product. US auto manufactures (in particular) had an operating method where they kept inventories high at all stages. This wasn't entirely deliberate. They weren't saying, "We need 5000 car doors just sitting here." They were, instead, saying, "We can't stop making doors just because everything else down the line is stopped due to <event> so keep churning them out and pile them up." The tail end inventory of "complete" vehicles were sitting there due, often, to quality issues (misaligned assemblies, missing parts, whatever the reason may be).

So inventory piles up everywhere along the chain, which also worked because there was a large turnaround period when retooling and equipment downtime (not always planned). Because Nobody Ever Gets Credit for Problems that Never Happened [0] there was an underinvestment in maintenance and improvement efforts. High inventory across the line papers over this issue. Lean discourages high inventory in order to make these issues apparent so that they can get the attention that they deserve. Also, rework is viewed as waste so quality issues should be addressed when they're discovered, not by assembling hundreds or thousands of vehicles incorrectly and then fixing them, fix the assembly line issues causing that misassembly.

[0] https://web.mit.edu/nelsonr/www/Repenning=Sterman_CMR_su01_....

sct202 2021-08-19 13:37:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Sort of, it would come down to suppliers would historically only sell in large quantities to maximize their production efficiency, so the per unit production cost would be minimized by running a long production run. But this would potentially cause scrap if the final product did not sell well to expectations or if there was a design error, and then also increased working capital as the inventory levels would spike really high with infrequent supply from the vendor instead of being more constant with more frequent replenishment.

And then multiply across everyone in a supply chain for a single product having to deal with waiting to receive giant parts orders from their vendors before they could start their own giant order to supply their customers.

hef19898 2021-08-19 13:36:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

They did stockpile everything due to not having a plan or consider costs. That also had the strange side effect of constantly running out of parts. In some way, stuff worked by accidentally having the right stuff on hand at the right time in sufficient quantities. TPS is all about having a plan for this stuff.

2021-08-19 12:42:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

brobdingnagians 2021-08-19 12:58:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but does anyone still produce cars without chips? It's possible, and in the current environment it seems like it would be a major competitive advantage-- and might be more reliable in general.

ghaff 2021-08-19 13:12:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>and might be more reliable in general

Cars in, say, the 1960s were not "more reliable in general." It's not all semiconductor-related of course--they also rusted out quickly in areas that got snow--but 5 years/50K miles is about what you were looking at for vehicle lifetime. Also much lower fuel efficiency, to say nothing of lack of what we'd consider routine safety features today.

UseStrict 2021-08-19 14:02:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Vehicles made a massive leap forward with the introduction of electronic components - fuel injection, oxygen sensors, throttle control. Not to mention essential safety components like traction control computers and anti-lock braking. There's no way a vehicle without these features would pass any sort of environmental or safety regulation today.

ohples 2021-08-19 13:22:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I seem to recall most cars built before the mid-80s just had 5 digit odometers.

everdrive 2021-08-19 14:12:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]

In addition, breakdowns were a much more regular occurrence. It wasn’t unheard of for brakes to fail without warning. I hate computer-laden cars quite a bit, but as you say, cars have become much more reliable than they ever were in the past. (Written while parked in a 17 year old Toyota.)

hef19898 2021-08-19 13:25:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Ever since working on Integrated-Logistcs-Support I take issue when terms like reliability are thrown around. Because in the end it's a result of looking at Reliability (stuff not breaking down often), Availability (stuff being functional when planned to be), Maintainability (how easily stuff can be kept functioning and repaired when broken), Supportability (how easy spares can be get) and Testability (how easy it is to find defects).

On that, Availability is the result of all the rest. With the important part of planned Availability, because that excludes stuff like planned maintenance. Arguably modern cars beat old ones in that category.

ghaff 2021-08-19 13:34:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I think that's true. What most of us care about in cars is that they work when we want to drive them someplace right now, won't leave us stuck on the side of the road, and don't have prohibitive (time or money) planned maintenance.

What's probably true is that older cars that aren't rusted out can probably be kept running by people with the appropriate mechanical skills even in the absence of proper factory/3rd party parts for longer than modern vehicles can. Given intact supply chains, modern vehicles are more available overall. But, to the point of the article, modern vehicles are more susceptible to lack of parts.

hef19898 2021-08-19 13:43:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

True, as an owner of a car from 1982 I agree. Requires a lot more preventive maintenance, e.g. oil changes every six months or 5-6k km, but runs perfectly fine when properly maintained. Also, I cam probably fix most issues with tools carried on board on the side of road. Enough to get to a proper workshop at least, I converted it to 2WD after killing a diff and drove for 200 km that way. If you cannot do that yourself, you're screwed so.

That being said, if I'd go on a 2k + mile trip I would put in some work to get the car fit for this. Looking at my dads VW camper, I'll just fill up drinking water, maybe gas and fuel. Without a serious amount of preventive maintenance those cars do have a tendency to break down so. I guess we are just not used to this kind cars or machinery anymore.

clipradiowallet 2021-08-19 14:21:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Also, I cam probably fix most issues with tools carried on board on the side of road.

I think that is the largest appeal to me of older cars. There are only so many parts that can fail, and they are all repairable with some time and hand tools(and maybe a Haynes manual!).

(for people unfamiliar, a Haynes manual is a 3rd party manual customized for most makes/models of automobiles. It describes with pictures how to perform [almost] any repair.)

hef19898 2021-08-19 14:27:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yeah, the Haynes Books of Lies! Kidding, they are great. Also I found that original workshop manual are sometimes better. Fun fact, Haynes has an owners manual for the WW2 Panther tank.

OldHand2018 2021-08-19 14:20:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Depending on the brand/model, the odds are pretty overwhelming that your car from 1982 has 5 or more chips in it.

The chip-ification of cars has been going on for a really, really long time.

hef19898 2021-08-19 14:29:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Mine has a total of three 35 amp glass fuses. And dual carbs. I can confidently say there are no chips in there, excluding the radio and the rests of the snack variant on the back seat. Sometimes I'd love EFI, 17 l / 100 km just hurts...

ghaff 2021-08-19 14:38:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I also remember when it was a good idea to carry spare fuses with you. I certainly don't in my current 10 year old vehicle and have absolutely no idea where the fuse box is (well I know the general vicinity where it probably is) without looking in the manual.

hef19898 2021-08-19 14:39:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Oh, I have probably half a dozen or so in the glove box! The auxiliary circuit has a tendency to blow the fuse out... Still unable to figure out why...

kwhitefoot 2021-08-19 13:55:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]

My 1965 Volvo Amazon did 300 k miles before I scrapped it, in 1984, in favour of a 1976 Volvo 245. I only scrapped it because it wasn't worth anything, it was in perfect working order. The floor of 245 finally succumbed to Norwegian road salt in 1996 after 250 k miles but was otherwise in perfect order.

I don't remember how far my 1965 Austin Mini van had done by the time I scrapped it in 1978 but I'm quite sure it was much more than 50 k miles.

ghaff 2021-08-19 14:35:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That was certainly not the norm however. I can clearly remember when 100K miles was considered exceptional and, as someone else noted, probably beyond what the odometer was designed for.

eldaisfish 2021-08-19 14:04:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]

this is survivorship bias, nothing more.

kwhitefoot 2021-08-19 16:44:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

No it isn't. Survivorship bias would have been me claiming that because my cars lasted more than 50 k miles that therefore all cars did.

I merely added a small counter argument to the idea that cars of the period were necessarily short lived.

hef19898 2021-08-19 14:36:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The bias is more that we go through cars faster, generally, then they die. And once a car isn't used anymore, it just rots away. Or it gets exported to some developing country to happily life for another couple of decades. How that would work with modern electronics, I don't know. Probably as long as electronics don't brick the car it should fine I guess.

WillPostForFood 2021-08-19 15:38:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The bias is more that we go through cars faster

Is that true though? Average length of car ownership is at an all-time high of over 8 years. It was under 5 years just 20 years ago. Maybe length of ownership doesn't correlate to length of car life, but seems like a strong signal that car quality and lifespan is going up.

didgeoridoo 2021-08-19 13:23:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The many Cubans driving cars from pre-1959 would be surprised to hear this.

ghaff 2021-08-19 13:28:35 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The fact that clunkers can be kept running at some level for an extended period of time (especially if they're not somewhere that the frame will simply rust out from road salt) doesn't change the fact that what people in developed countries would consider reliable day-to-day transportation has a significantly longer life cycle than it used to.

2021-08-19 14:06:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

CryptoPunk 2021-08-19 13:55:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Capitalism really promotes planned durability.

ghaff 2021-08-19 14:13:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Cars are 1.) expensive enough and 2.) required by many people to work in order to get through the day that, while plenty of people also want the latest and greatest, most value reliability and long lifetime a lot. (To the point where these are tracked pretty carefully by organizations like CR.)

detaro 2021-08-19 13:00:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

"Without chips" is not really possible if you want to sell in first-world markets, way to many requirements (engine efficiency, safety features, ...) you would be hard-pressed to meet otherwise.

raisedbyninjas 2021-08-19 13:25:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Backup cameras are required now.

kube-system 2021-08-19 13:35:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Stability control has been mandatory in the US since 2012. I doubt there’s any remotely reasonable mechanical way to accomplish that.

fulafel 2021-08-19 14:04:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

EVs in lighter classes that don't have ESC requirements would probably work. A bit of battery design work for the analog BMC would be needed to use lithium chemistry but shouldn't be that hard.

andruby 2021-08-19 13:23:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I don't think it's possible. At least not road-legal in Europe.

There must be hundreds of chips in a modern car: Engine, ABS, wireless key, cruise control, radio, audio, electric windows, gps, battery management, airbags, seat-belt check, sensors, climate control, ...

silon42 2021-08-19 14:27:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]

you could drop: wireless key, cruise control, gps easily

possibly climate control (not needed for short rides, a fan will do), maybe even radio (can always add later) and electric windows

I'd buy that car if it was cheaper... I'd need AWD though, trailer hitch...

atonse 2021-08-19 13:20:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I can’t think of any system in a car today that doesn’t use some chip somewhere.

Wouldn’t even power steering use it? Headlights?

Engines would have engine control units running some kind of real-time OS, anti lock brakes, anti traction systems, airbags, power locks with wireless keys. Climate control vs just “AC fan on”

Even some ignition systems have chips that do some kind of key exchange to start the car. (Yes you can bypass it but now you’re making a car that’s easier to steal)

jccooper 2021-08-19 15:53:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]

No; it would be illegal in every major market, which if nothing else all require some sort of on-board diagnostics system. OBD has been required in California since 1988. India just recently required OBD on everything.

josephd79 2021-08-19 13:02:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

probably not, regulation and crack down on pollution from vehicles. Have you ever rode in an older car that uses a carburetor instead of fuel injection? Nothing like the crisp smell of gasoline in the morning... or anytime you drive it.

cuu508 2021-08-19 13:18:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Of course, you need some electronics. Let's rephrase: which cars from western mainstream manufacturers are currently the "lowest tech"? No infotainment, no digital dash, no touch-sensitive anything, as few sensors as is viable to still be road legal?

And a related question: modern cars are full of tech because that's what market demands. Can we expect the trend to reverse at some point?

throwaway0a5e 2021-08-19 13:24:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>No infotainment, no digital dash, no touch-sensitive anything, as few sensors as is viable to still be road legal?

For compact/subcompact sedans/hatches and midsize sedans the OEMs typically make a super stripped down variant so they can advertise an insanely low "starting at" MSRP. Dealers don't typically buy a lot of them so they're very hard to find and you'll likely have little room to haggle on price.

Nowadays there's a pretty long list of mandatory electronics and everything has at least one bus network in it but if you want to minimize the number of extraneous modules on that network then a stripped down economy car is your best bet.

aembleton 2021-08-19 15:19:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Probably the Dacia Sandero https://www.dacia.co.uk/vehicles/sandero.html

Go for the Access version and you don't even get a radio.

cuu508 2021-08-19 16:11:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

James May on Dacia Sandero: "This car really does say that you have more sense than money. And if you happen to be astonishingly rich, think how sensible it makes you. It's anti-fashion, anti-consumerism, anti-obsolescence."

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ELX7NJxnUX0

bluGill 2021-08-19 14:07:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> modern cars are full of tech because that's what market demands. Can we expect the trend to reverse at some point?

No, they are nice to haves. anyone who is looking to save money on a car will buy a used car with those features because they get the cheaper price and the features.

lallysingh 2021-08-19 14:00:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]

https://ineosgrenadier.com/ may hit the spirit of what you want best. There's still a screen, but mostly for Android Auto/Carplay.

akiselev 2021-08-19 13:32:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> no digital dash

Rear view cameras are mandatory since ~2014 so I don't think this is possible.

jaywalk 2021-08-19 14:09:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]

He probably means no digital instrument cluster, which isn't necessary for a rear view camera. Most lower-end vehicles put a dedicated screen in the mirror for the rear view camera.

throwaway9870 2021-08-19 13:15:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You cannot build a modern car engine without chips, let alone a car. Also, no way to hit safety requirements without chips (air bag deployment for example).

gameswithgo 2021-08-19 13:18:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I mean yes, if you take that tautologically, since a modern car engine has a chip. But probably you could build an engine that meets modern requirements without. People forget how clever analog solutions can be. It would be a huge pain in the ass though, and take years.

hef19898 2021-08-19 13:49:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]

No, not since the late 80s when electronic fuel injection became necessary to meet emission standards. The alternative, carbs, just isn't good enough anymore.

w-m 2021-08-19 13:14:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

All new cars in the EU need to have an automatic emergency call system since 2018: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall

That would be hard to pull off without chips. Although I guess you could keep it completely isolated from the rest of the car.

jrwoodruff 2021-08-19 13:34:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I don't even know if you can buy new off-road toys that don't have chips - four wheelers, side-by-sides, snowmobiles and the like. Pretty sure they all use electronic fuel injection these days, and that requires at least one chip.

bri3d 2021-08-19 14:20:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Even before EFI, almost all dirt bikes and snowmobiles built since probably the 1980s have had electronic ignition. You have to go pretty far back in time to find a vehicle of any sort with a points ignition that has no silicon/transistorized electronics in it.

teorema 2021-08-19 13:16:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Ugh... in one of the these threads on HN someone said a manufacturer was doing that, or at least openly speculating about it, offering a low tech model. I think it was in France but my memory is fuzzy.

NickNameNick 2021-08-19 13:32:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Probably thinking of 'voitures sans permis', really small cars that can be driven in France by people without drivers licenses.

(Including by people who've been disqualified...)

pyb 2021-08-19 13:45:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Dacia Logan ?

gameswithgo 2021-08-19 13:10:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It is probably possible but would require complex mechanical solutions to meet modern efficiency and emissions requirements that would likely be far less reliable.

refurb 2021-08-19 15:05:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

No. US cars got chips starting in the mid-80’s, so almost 40 years ago.

And they were actually much more reliable and efficient. Fuel injection was light years ahead of carburetors.

And I’d argue it would be impossible to meet emissions without computer control of the engine.

Cloudef 2021-08-19 13:15:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It is possible, but the cars will be taxed into oblivion, because of push to electric cars. This is nothing new in finland because nobody there buys new car anyways, and continues to recycle existing old cars. Though that will also soon become impossible due to rising taxes to get rid of the old cars. I'm not sure which here is supposed to be more eco-friendly in the long run, but I suppose if you make people impossible to own anything that'll eventually win?

Unklejoe 2021-08-19 15:44:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I just wonder how deep this goes down the line of third party suppliers. Like, I know a lot of auto manufacturers use Bosch or Siemens for their ECUs, so I would think it’s really out of their hands. Then again, maybe they have terms in the contract to force Bosch to maintain a certain inventory?

phkahler 2021-08-19 12:50:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Most auto companies don't take delivery of chips except for managing production of a few key modules like engine controllers. Most of the chips in your car are in components made by suppliers with circuit boards often made by a second tier supplier. Combine that with many chips having no alternate and I don't see how Toyota could really stay exempt from this problem. OTOH not every chip maker is having trouble keeping up.

lostapathy 2021-08-19 13:01:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Toyota doesn't have to physically hold the chips/modules to accomplish they. They have contracts with suppliers that lock in how much inventory the supplier has to have on hand, and how much supply they need locked in from their own upstream suppliers.

One criticism of Toyota's production system is that they aren't so much "just in time" as it sounds on the surface, rather they just force their suppliers to run the warehouse instead of them. Which still makes sense - Toyota wants to be in the car business, not the warehouse and logistics businesses.

bluGill 2021-08-19 14:10:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Toyota is in the logistics business more than the car business. Sure cars make the money, but the logistics are the hard part of a large car factory.

lostapathy 2021-08-19 14:12:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

In that way - one could argue they "manage the logistics business" - but that they don't actually want to do the logistics (or own the inventory/warehouses).

icegreentea2 2021-08-19 12:49:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The article (and others about this topic) indicate that the chip shortage isn't just a static. They all claim that chip and other supply chains (all based on South East Asian) are all under new pressure from delta strain spread.

In fact, I wonder how much of this really is chip supply vs general supply. Most articles on this open with headlines about chip supply, but then contains quotes from Toyota about "supply" and "parts" in general.

technothrasher 2021-08-19 13:38:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I can't speak for Toyota, but for my own electronics manufacturing business its definitely a chip specific shortage. We don't really have huge problems getting most stuff, but digital ICs are more and more just simply unobtainium, with vague lead times of 1-2 years.

creeble 2021-08-19 14:39:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Highly anecdotal, but I spoke to Bilstein about some seemingly unobtainium shocks yesterday. Pre-pandemic these part numbers were common as dirt.

They said their sales were up 50-60% over the last 18 mos, and that raw materials supply is down by a similar margin.

These are shock absorbers, not chips or toilet paper.

It seems like we're seeing the delayed effect on supply chains over the pandemic. There is surely no value in hoarding shock absorbers, and if distributors were the hoarders, they seem to just be sitting on them, not raising prices.

ruuda 2021-08-19 13:09:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yeah, this also makes no sense to me:

> The Covid pandemic boosted demand for appliances that use chips, such as phones, TVs and games consoles.

SOCs in phones and game consoles are produced on very different processes than chips used in cars, no? Cars don't need the smallest dies or most energy-efficient chips. These industries are not competing for the same capacity. Or am I missing something?

detaro 2021-08-19 13:13:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

They certainly overlap. SoCs aren't the only chips in game consoles or other devices, different kinds of chip production have shared supply chains that themselves are struggling, SoCs used in cars aren't necessarily that different from the ones in other appliances (e.g. NVidia Tegra X1 is used both in the Nintendo Switch and some cars, and probably a pile of other things) ...

kube-system 2021-08-19 13:28:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Not everything is a purpose built CPU, GPU or SoC on cutting edge nodes. There are many general purpose ICs that are boring and ubiquitous: Display drivers, power conversion, amplifiers, microcontrollers, etc.

fouric 2021-08-19 14:38:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Hypothesis: there's a correlation between shortage of chips made with cutting-edge processes and chips that are not, because a lot of them are made by the same companies (and the supply-chain issues are impacting companies not just product lines). For instance, in addition to having the bleeding-edge 5nm node, TSMC has a lot of larger nodes and specialty non-digital-CPU nodes, too[1].

[1] https://techtaiwan.com/20210816/tsmc-speciality-technology/

gameswithgo 2021-08-19 13:11:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

modern car entertainment systems often use some of the same parts as tvs/game systems/pcs etc

perhaps the engine ECU is not the chip that is in low supply

2021-08-19 13:45:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

petre 2021-08-19 13:21:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> SOCs in phones and game consoles are produced on very different processes than chips used in cars, no?

Yes, some of them are different. Consumer chips are not industrial norm, they have narrower environmental operating ranges.

The foundries producing automotive chips shifted production to consumer chips during the lockdowns, as the auto production lines were on hold. This caused supply chain disruptions. Add to that US > China IP export bans and you have a black swan event.

wallaBBB 2021-08-19 13:27:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Much of the ECUs OEM are purchasing from Tier 1 suppliers (Denso for example - a Toyota spinoff) who are directly hit by IC shortage, so that's why they are talking about overall supply. Also Japanese OEMs and suppliers tend to favor ICs from Renesas, and Renesas has been hit particularly hard this year [1].

[1] https://www.renesas.com/us/en/about/press-room/notice-regard...

imaginariet 2021-08-19 12:28:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

As Taleb likes to say, an efficient system is the opposite of a robust system, kind of by definition.

We are now witnessing the effects of our modern hyper-efficient just-in-time global manufacturing system.

akg_67 2021-08-19 12:35:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Actually, Toyota moved away from JIT after 2011 earthquake when several of it’s factories had to stop production due to lack of parts from other factories impacted by earthquake. One of the change was increased inventory levels of components.

Toyota is one of the last automaker to reduce production due to the current chip shortage, because they had enough chips for 18-24 months of production.

Edit: It seems some of Toyota factories in Southeast Asia have shutdown due to Covid spread in those countries resulting in shortage of parts supplied to factories in Japan. Reported to be 40% reduction in production.

monkeynotes 2021-08-19 12:40:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Actually Toyota's manufacturing process was changed after Fukushima and was one of the only companies that plans for situations like this: https://www.autoblog.com/2021/03/09/toyota-how-it-avoided-se...

Edit, what the other poster said.

AzzieElbab 2021-08-19 12:48:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

yeah, but about everyone else?

sumtechguy 2021-08-19 12:55:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]

They now learn the lesson Toyota learned in 2011.

boramalper 2021-08-19 14:53:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Relevant: The Security Value of Inefficiency by Bruce Schneier

> This drive for efficiency leads to brittle systems that function properly when everything is normal but break under stress. And when they break, everyone suffers. The less fortunate suffer and die. The more fortunate are merely hurt, and perhaps lose their freedoms or their future. But even the extremely fortunate suffer — maybe not in the short term, but in the long term from the constriction of the rest of society.

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/07/the_security_...

2021-08-19 13:01:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

patentatt 2021-08-19 12:59:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

And it’s the same with our healthcare system and hospitals. Because they are run as businesses, hospitals are finely tuned to be mostly full most of the time. When COVID fills up 30% of your beds, it quickly overwhelms the system and it crumbles. This is why healthcare needs to be publicly owned, because robustness is necessarily inefficient, and inefficient is incompatible with capitalism.

imaginariet 2021-08-19 13:25:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

In UK, where NHS is publicly owned, it was actually policy to have 90% occupancy of ICU beds. If it was less than that, the "extra" beds would be removed.

KuiN 2021-08-19 16:36:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Do you have a source for that quite extraordinary claim?

iamgopal 2021-08-19 16:12:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Why ? What’s the rationale ? How they arrived at 90 percent figure ?

peytn 2021-08-19 15:58:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]

No, the government restricts facility size. Look up “Certificate of Need laws” if you’d like more information.

monocasa 2021-08-19 16:34:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Those exist because the hospitals are privately owned. An area doesn't want hospital companies getting into a pricing war and then both going under leaving the area without hospital service at all.

There'd be no reason for it with a public health care system.

HideousKojima 2021-08-19 13:09:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Robustness isn't incompatible with capitalism, it's incompatible with any system where the government is willing to swoop in and bail out companies that fail. Companies that plan around failures/shortages/disruptions lose the ability to profit from their planning, while those that didn't plan ahead get showered with free money or cheap loans.

whall6 2021-08-19 14:47:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I don’t understand why this is getting downvoted considering this is almost verbatim what Taleb preaches.

WillPostForFood 2021-08-19 15:43:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

he forgot the trigger warning: this post does not blame capitalism for all modern ills.

wiz21c 2021-08-19 13:34:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You should be upvoted 100 points. That's the elephant in the room. Basically selfish behavior lead to global problem. So no, we can't let big corps rule the world alone.

wonderwonder 2021-08-19 13:04:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]

So new cars are going to be come more expensive due to supply limitations and in turn used cars will continue to become more expensive as they can rise to a certain % of the new car price. At the same time housing prices continue to sky rocket. Seems like not a great time for someone just stepping into adulthood and financial responsibility.

xyzelement 2021-08-19 13:28:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> just stepping into adulthood and financial responsibility.

I am older than that (40 and my wife is 35) and while we have been independent professionals for a while, we now have a 1 year old so this summer for the first time in our lives we bought a house and a car.

It was definitely harder to find a house (mainly less availability driving competitive bidding) and it took a little longer to find a car and we ended up having to pay MSRP.

However the thing I can say is - the incremental cost/hassle of having to do these things during the pandemic supply crunch is almost irrelevant compared to having to do this stuff at all. We paid say 3% more for the car and ok maybe 10/20% for the house than we would have otherwise, obviously that's painful but if I was "just stepping into adulthood and financial responsibility" I'd look to avoid this stuff altogether.

EG: do you need to own a house? If you're a single person, "throwing away" money on a relatively inexpensive rental might be much wiser than "investing" in a house in a seller's market. Likewise, if you're young and single then you should relatively easily (depending on where you live of course) arrange your life to not need a car. It was very easy for us in NYC, of course may be different for you.

The point is that in my mind, "adulthood and financial responsibility" don't have to translate "got my own house and car" but simply "making wise financial decisions given my situation" so if there's room to be flexible, be flexible.

fartcannon 2021-08-19 13:54:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]

When I was in my early 20s, someone gave me this exact advice. I didn't have much money and they said that real estate was too expensive and I should just invest/rent. Fast forward to today, I paid 8x more for my small sad house than I would have then and my investments on my small amount of money didn't make up the difference.

The market is so screwed up that even a crash that halved the price would still be 4 times price back then.

xyzelement 2021-08-19 14:01:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Finance guy here, two things. You are looking at it in retrospect. "I should have bought a house" is no different than "I should have bought X stock" when you're looking at the price history backwards. At the time, it could have gone up or down. EG we just bought a house, I have many reasons to expect that it could drop in value over the next bunch of years.

Second, you may not be doing proper calculations. I would not have - before I bought a house. Do you count property taxes, upkeep, larger water and electricity bills, possibly longer commute times/needing a car, relative lack of mobility, air conditioner/heating/roofing/siding/repair, lawn maintenance, etc.

Yes sure, if I bought this house 10 years ago, it would have been great. But I wouldn't know 10 years ago that I'd want this house, and for example dealing with all the above shit as a single man would have been stupid. There were also points in my life where I was very open to relocation for the right job, something home ownership would have put friction on.

it's very common to think of only a pro or a con of a decision (if I bought earlier, it would have only cost X) but you're not factoring the risk that existed at the time, nor the commitment you're creating on yourself, not the carrying costs I described above.

May not be relevant to you but I feel fine about "losing out" on 20 years of house appreciation (if I bought at 20 not 40) because I avoided all that stuff for 20 years, too.

fartcannon 2021-08-19 15:24:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Whatever helps you sleep at night :D

My parents bought a detatched home at 20 with minimum wage jobs. I bought a townhouse at 40 with a high paying career. My kid is going to be 60 by the time he can afford a home.

It's fucked. Buy now.

xyzelement 2021-08-19 15:35:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> It's fucked. Buy now.

Ok you certainly should go for it, but I'll give you one analysis that I have. We bought in a NYC suburb (for a bunch of reasons) and here's what I think constitutes price risk for me.

At the end of the day, a house is worth what someone can and is willing to pay for it. Right now, there's reasons the demand is high for near-NYC housing because (a) people aren't sure they need to be near NYC long-run and don't want to risk it (b) it's an easiest move to make to leave the city and not go far (c) supply is low because with covid, fewer people are willing to have an open house (d) now everyone is in a rush to upsize so space is at a premium.

All of these are demand factors that can change. EG: (a) it may become clear in 1-2 years that permanent remote is an option for many people, relieving demand pressure on NYC and the area. (b) once people are comfortable with leaving the city they may be comfortable moving further afield. (c) the pent-up supply of folks who didn't sell in 2020/2021 may come to market, especially if a and b occur, causing people to want to sell before it's "too late" (d) everyone who needed up upsize may have done it, relieving that pressure.

Also, for New York state specifically, with the number of wealthy people leaving the states, it feels inevitable that state and property taxes will rise, making all of this even less attractive.

And finally, interest rates are ridiculously low right now, rising rates will be a damper on prices when that happens.

Obviously there plenty of reasons it could also go up, but if your model is so simple "it's fucked so it's always goes up" you may get fucked too.

ghaff 2021-08-19 13:39:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

NYC (esp. Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn) is pretty exceptional in the US with respect to there being no expectation of car ownership. You can get by in other cities out of school (especially given app-enabled rides, Zipcar, etc.) but the general expectation is car ownership.

As for housing, it's perfectly normal to rent for a while until you know you want to settle down in a location for an extended period of time.

devoutsalsa 2021-08-19 13:33:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Rents are going through the roof, too.

nosianu 2021-08-19 13:41:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]

And when you try getting that hole in the roof fixed, you might run into even more problems:

"Roofing Industry Faces Unprecedented Supply Disruption" (April 27, 2021)

https://www.roofingcontractor.com/articles/95590-roofing-ind...

wonderwonder 2021-08-19 14:56:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Wonder how much of that is driven by people actually being home to answer the door when roofers knocked during Covid. Completely anecdotal but I got a new roof during the covid lock down and so did 3 of my neighbors and its mainly due to being home to answer the door and the roofer being able to get insurance to cover the cost.

BossingAround 2021-08-19 13:44:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The fact that you can weather the extra costs doesn't mean it's "no big deal," which is how your posts comes across to me.

xyzelement 2021-08-19 13:55:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The point of my post was to give the OP some pragmatic advice, on the bigger-deal lever he has in his life. Obviously there's a marginal drop-off of who can afford X if X goes up even a little.

ipqk 2021-08-19 13:10:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The difference being that lots of people want to keep those inflated housing prices high (nimbyism), whereas nearly everyone wants car prices to go back to normal.

dalbasal 2021-08-19 13:24:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Nimbyism exists, as do more concrete constraints in urban locations but...

The way house prices work, often, is more or less banks determining prices via mortgage eligibility. Banks agree that a house is worth X. They lend X. That becomes the price. Buyers tend to be available.

People are so quick to see that credit expansion fuels price inflation in other areas, even the economy at large, but somehow diminish or ignore this with housing.

Obviously, supply constraints avoidable or otherwise, affect supply. In any given year though, the supply of housing does not change a ton. Where they do, you don't tend to have wild inflation... though you do often see bigger houses.

It's impossible to decouple housing from monetary policy. Housing is one of the few ways that buying power gets from A to B, where B is not a financial institution or direct spending.

sandworm101 2021-08-19 13:29:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>> whereas nearly everyone wants car prices to go back to normal.

There is a significant voice that would like to price cars out of private ownership. Traffic, pollution, safety, urban sprawl ... pick your evil and someone wants to eliminate private cars for that reason.

I regularly read about how the next wave of cars will all be somehow "shared", that we will whistle and they will appear at our doorsteps ready to carry us off to our 9-to-5 jobs in shiny glass office towers. I just don't see that happening anytime soon. Total conversion to electric cars in 10 years, maybe. Conversion to total ride-sharing and/or mass transit, doubtful in 30.

nsizx 2021-08-19 13:31:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That's like 0.1% of people

razius 2021-08-19 17:05:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The 0.1% that matter.

yalogin 2021-08-19 13:21:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Car prices won't go back to normal again though. They will come up clever financing schemes to make people pay but the prices will never be reduced.

JackPoach 2021-08-19 13:35:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There's huge inflation in many things related to making cars (chips, steel, shipping costs as many cars are still being shipped across the ocean, labor costs, etc.). We are likely to be in the very beginning of significant inflation cycle, with probably double digit inflation which will eventually drop to 4-4.5%. I wouldn't expect to prices to drop any time soon, nor have 2% inflation. My bet is that fewer and fewer new cars will be sold in the next few years (3-5) with prices rising 4-10% each year.

ptero 2021-08-19 14:02:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It's not just cars, the prices are rising across the board (not evenly), so we have pretty high inflation if you add in the items official estimates excluded.

wyager 2021-08-19 13:30:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This is mostly just a reflection of the fact that the value of the dollar has declined precipitously over the last 18 months. Dollar prices are sticky, so it can take a bit of a shock for inflation to “kick in”, but we’ve had plenty of shocks to go around.

smeyer 2021-08-19 14:43:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I don't think it's fair to attribute "most" of this to inflation. Car prices have been rising much faster than many other components of CPI, so even in real rather than nominal dollars cars are getting more expensive.

wyager 2021-08-19 15:18:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The stuff people actually care about has been rising faster than CPI. Cars, housing, meat, metals, lumber, etc. are all going through the roof. Inflation is a vector, and any reduction to a scalar involves taking the dot product of that vector with a weight vector. Under my personal weight vector, and I suspect most people’s weight vector, inflation is a lot higher than CPI.

jondwillis 2021-08-19 13:55:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I'll add a bit of a pedantic point: the dollar hasn't really lost any value _against other currencies_ (DXY) over the past year. In fact, it is a little higher.

It has lost value against lots of commodities and "real" goods.

tms2x2 2021-08-19 13:36:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

When do we get 30 year loans to buy a car?

wonderwonder 2021-08-19 13:42:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I don't think it's necessarily NIMBY or at least my understanding of it that makes people want to keep housing prices elevated. If I buy a house at an inflated price, I want the house value to continue to rise as a large degree of my financial security is tied up in that house. My ability to refinance, take cash out and eventually even sell that house are tied to it continuing to escalate in value. In the US this is particularly true as so much of out net worth is essentially our home value. As inflation increases and peoples ability to save is even further reduced this will become even more of an issue.

BurningFrog 2021-08-19 13:45:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]

NIMBY-ism doesn't make people want housing prices to rise.

The wish to inflate housing prices causes NIMBY-ism!

beached_whale 2021-08-19 13:23:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I would say it is more self perpetuating. With housing prices growing as they are, people are saving less for retirement and putting that money into their house with a plan to cash out, move to the country, and retirement.

ThePadawan 2021-08-19 13:31:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I live in a country with a working public transport system.

I'd prefer it if ICE cars were as expensive as possible in order for the planet not to burst into flames.

ren_engineer 2021-08-19 13:22:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]

but stop and think for a second about all those short term profits Wall Street made by outsourcing all of our crucial manufacturing! Those congressional bribes don't pay themselves either! /s

the worst part is our government is rewarding them for bad behavior, the article mentions the billion dollar chip subsidy program. So these companies made money outsourcing and will now make more by bringing it back. Instead they should put a massive tariff on any chip not made in the US. Companies that invested here would be rewarded for loyalty

dcolkitt 2021-08-19 13:28:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

What short term profits? The car industry has among the lowest margins in the entire economy.

Moreover the chips were never outsourced. Toyota never made its own chips, nor is it feasible to. You seem to have some sort of idealized view where a company internally manufactures everything it needs starting from raw materials. That’s not how it works, and that’s never how it worked.

ren_engineer 2021-08-19 13:36:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]

"silicon valley" is the name because of all the chips that used to be made here, US used to lead the world in chip manufacturing

Toyota is just a symptom, every other car manufacturer and other industries are facing shortages as well. The US economy is now strangled because our supply chain got outsourced for "efficiency" that didn't account for potential disruptions

lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 13:42:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Instead they should put a massive tariff on any chip not made in the US. Companies that invested here would be rewarded for loyalty

Voters would have rewarded politicians who supported these tariffs by voting them out of office for making all their toys more expensive. Everyone likes cheaper stuff and more stuff in the short term.

ren_engineer 2021-08-19 13:57:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]

voters have complained about stuff being made in China for years and if it was framed from a nation security perspective you'd get wide bipartisan support. The current chip subsidy program literally just got wide bipartisan support, it's extremely popular

lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 14:13:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Now that the effects have been felt, yes. But not a few decades ago when the majority were enjoying cheaper goods. Even now, I do not see broad support for tariffs in order to bring production back to the country.

misja111 2021-08-19 13:34:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It's a bit too easy to blame this only on Wall Street. First of all companies have outsourced their production facilities to lower production costs. The parties benefiting from this were:

- shareholders (more profit)

- consumers (lower prices)

Second, you could say shareholders == Wall Street, but you could just as well say that shareholders are pension holders, banks, insurances and small private investors. All of these simply want to have return on their investment that is as high as possible. If that's good or bad is an interesting question, but the bottom line is that very few people are without blame here.

ren_engineer 2021-08-19 13:40:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

you'll notice I also blamed congress for effectively being bribed to allow this to happen. The government's job should be to prevent stupidity like this from happening, Department of Defense at the very least should have been sounding the horn of how our supply chain issues are national security issues

plenty of people have been warning for decades how the reliance on manufacturing from other countries could have major consequences. The fact that a small island like Taiwan is probably the most important geo-political issue in the world could have been prevented with a little bit of long term planning

oldsklgdfth 2021-08-19 14:47:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> stepping into adulthood and financial responsibility

The timing of my life events is one of the things I am most grateful of.

I graduated in 2014 and within a couple years I bought a house. Strong job market for an employee and low interest rate.

I know people that were getting PhDs, because they started undergrad in the aftermath of the housing bubble and couldn't find jobs when finished. I also know people that decided to buy a house before the bubble and are still stuck underwater, preventing them to pursue opportunities not in their area. I also know people that went into medicine as tuition became ridiculous and have no way of servicing their student loans.

I guess what I'm getting at is count your blessings. Others may not be as fortunate as you.

blunte 2021-08-19 14:04:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It's been "not a good time" since 1975. Prior to that, at least in first world countries, you could start with less intelligence and have a much better chance at class improvement and even financially secure retirement than now.

On the other hand, if you're in politics, finance, or executive business management, it's been a really, really great last 40+ years.

teorema 2021-08-19 13:13:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Not really a great time for anyone really, at least from the vantage point you're referring to.

dahfizz 2021-08-19 13:19:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]

If you're an established adult who owns a house and two cars, your assets have skyrocketted. You're having a great time.

codesnik 2021-08-19 13:24:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]

how? can you capitalize on that upside somehow? sell them, live in a tent until prices are down?

mikeyouse 2021-08-19 13:32:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Obviously most people can’t do this but a family member was recently approached by the dealer who sold him his most recent work truck. He’s driven like 30k miles on it in the past 2 years and it was a $75k Chevy diesel. Dealer offered him $90k to buy it back from him (to sell to someone else) and my family member said “Sure”. So he made $15k on an asset that should have lost 1/2 its value by now. Obviously rare and hard to take advantage of but some people are absolutely capitalizing on the weirdness.

wonderwonder 2021-08-19 13:43:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I assume that in most situations like this the original person with the truck would have to replace that truck. In this case he now has to pay 90k for the truck he originally paid 75k for.

mikeyouse 2021-08-19 14:00:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Perhaps, but it's not uncommon for these places buying new-off-the-lot high end trucks (my family members' included) to have a dozen+ vehicles at their disposal. He's planning on using his 5-year old similar HD truck until the market thaws a bit, but it's also overkill for most everything he does. One of the many work vans his business owns can likely do 95% of the work. They're mostly just buying the big ones for clout and due to generous tax writeoffs.

dahfizz 2021-08-19 13:45:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Or hobble along with a "free" $15k clunker until prices go back down.

alistairSH 2021-08-19 14:11:35 +0000 UTC [ - ]

But what does he drive now? If the truck was just a toy that didn't need replaced, then good for him. But that's not the case for the majority of people.

bluGill 2021-08-19 16:08:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There are lot of construction workers driving around 20 year old trucks. Those who own a company and don't use the truck as a limo to show off to customers value the extra money in their pocket. The more the truck is abused, the older it will be (concrete and rocks are abusive to the body of trucks so those industries get the oldest ones)

dcolkitt 2021-08-19 13:30:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You can pull out home equity in a cash out refinance. Borrow at 2.5%, then roll that into index funds averaging 8%, and turbo-charge your retirement goals.

i_haz_rabies 2021-08-19 13:38:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

"put it all on black!"

bluGill 2021-08-19 16:16:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]

yeah. That might work out, but my investments are diversified more. I have real estate in the form of my house. I have stocks and bonds in my 401k. I have government in my social security. They are completely separate, so if any one fails I'm still okay. (well if the government fails I'm probably in trouble no matter what, but social security is limited at best)

dahfizz 2021-08-19 13:43:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]

HELOC's are very common. You can cash out on all that new home equity and install solar panels, build an extension, put in a pool....

alistairSH 2021-08-19 14:13:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That's assuming you have the cash-flow to float the new loan. If you bought the home 5+ years ago, that might be true, but for anybody who bought recently, that's probably not an option.

malfist 2021-08-19 13:31:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I capitalized on it by buying a new car and selling my old one. I sold a 3 year old camaro for $1000 less than I paid for it. I didn't get very much off MSRP of the new car, but I got way more value from a three year old camaro than I ever expected to get.

heliodor 2021-08-19 13:47:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]

So... you got more for your used car and paid more for your new one.

Which is exactly the point being made by the parent comment that you can't capitalize on the upside. You'd have to sell and step out for a while.

malfist 2021-08-19 14:23:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]

What do you mean I can't capitalize on the upside?

Sure, my purchase costs went up some, but no where close to the additional value I got over normal for my sale. Put it this way, I paid a few hundred dollars, maybe a thousand dollars more for the car than I would normally, but I sold my old car for thousands more than I normally would have been able too.

That's capitalizing on the upside for sure.

dahfizz 2021-08-19 14:03:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Used cars used to be worth x% of a new car.

Today, they are worth x+y% of a new car.

If you trade up now, you will pay less for the new car than if you traded up two years ago.

Similar situation for houses. Even if we assume all houses have inflated by the same rate, you can still downsize and cash out. Your existing $600K house is inflated 25% and you can sell for $750k. You downsize to a $400k house which is inflated to $500k. You oversold for $150k, but only overpaid by $100k and you pocket the difference.

mlac 2021-08-19 13:27:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yeah they are not liquid assets… my concern is if one of my cars dies…

dahfizz 2021-08-19 13:41:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Trade it in. You'll still pay MSRP on the new car, but you will get way more for your trade in than it is worth.

frockington1 2021-08-19 15:18:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I bought another house and am renting the old one out. The new house has an interest rate at 2.3% while inflation is over 5% with conservative estimates.

burntwater 2021-08-19 13:26:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The chasm between the lower class and even the middle class is widening by literally the week.

gonzo41 2021-08-19 13:16:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Spend 5K on a really nice commuter electric bicycle. You'll be doing a solid for the Environment and you'll have an EV that makes you fitter.

lordgroff 2021-08-19 13:44:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I live 50km from work now (thankfully looks like mostly remote forever, the COVID silver lining), but I used to bike to work before I had kids.

I don't know that I'd do it again. The number of avoided-death-by-split-second close calls that I racked up in about five years is just too high... Now that I'm a bit older and have children, seems irresponsible.

This is in a city with relatively developed bike infrastructure, including separated lanes in some places. (Some) drivers just don't give a damn, and while I wish it was different, I don't see it changing any time soon either.

rcMgD2BwE72F 2021-08-19 16:24:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This is so sad. We did not build cities for humans but for machines that, we thought, would serve humans well. We got it so wrong.

fires10 2021-08-19 13:24:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]

My problem with 5K on an electric bike is the 50 mile commute one way to work in inclement weather.

dshoemaker 2021-08-19 13:37:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I think the 50 mile one-way commute may be more of the problem here. I can't imagine traveling that far for work daily.

neon_electro 2021-08-19 13:34:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Fair enough - doesn’t sound like you were ever the target audience for a commuter bike to begin with.

dijit 2021-08-19 13:39:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The three most cycle heavy cities in Europe all get more rainfall than London.

(Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Malmö)

Something else is the problem. Maybe infrastructure or terrain.

bongoman37 2021-08-19 13:22:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

If you have a kid that's not a workable solution, moreover, safety is a huge issue on 2 wheelers.

acdha 2021-08-19 13:31:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I’ve taken my son on an e-bike daily since he was 11 months old - he loves it compared to being in the car. There are a range of products on the market handling up to 4 kids and with creature comforts like rain shields.

I use one of these: https://yubabikes.com/cargobikestore/electric-boda-boda/

A relative uses one of these in the Boston area, year round:

https://www.ternbicycles.com/us/bikes/472/gsd

A friend loves this for their family:

https://www.r-m.de/en-us/bikes/packster-70/

Not cheap, but an order of magnitude less than a car ($10k/year by AAA’s numbers) over the lifetime of the bike.

steve_adams_86 2021-08-19 14:01:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

For anyone with a small commute I’d recommend this too. Our Yuba (spicy curry) has around 3000km on it over 2.5 years, is going strong, and I’ll still be commuting ~30km per week over the next year with it taking my 4 year old to daycare then going to work. I’ll likely continue commuting with him on it to kindergarten and perhaps early grade school.

It wasn’t cheap initially ($7000 CAD), but the cost per km drops enormously every year while the bike still rides as well as ever. The kids have all loved it, too. My youngest is disappointed when we drive places - he wants to walk or ride all year.

We do have a temperate climate which helps. Our cold days in winter are typically around 5 degrees outside of cold snaps, but even then we rarely dip below 0.

It’s a major quality of life improvement for us. They’re amazing grocery getters, you don’t get all sweaty on them, kids tend to love it, and they’re quite a bit easier to buy, maintain, and park than a car.

We went with the spicy curry because of its insane cargo capacity (we’ve used it for its full capacity many times, especially while bike camping), but you can spend far less if you don’t need to carry that weight.

wonderwonder 2021-08-19 13:44:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This is great in theory but not so great when you are food shopping for a family or you need take the kids to get new shoes.

carlmr 2021-08-19 13:20:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

My problem with dropping 5K on a bike is that they get stolen

rcMgD2BwE72F 2021-08-19 16:26:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

In France, all bikes must now be marked to prevent theft https://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/nieuws/2021/01/fran...

Is there similar plans in the US or at least some states?

dont__panic 2021-08-19 13:25:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

In the US city that I live in, cars get stolen an awful lot too. And not just puffers (cars left with the keys in the ignition to warm up on a cold day) -- I've heard of plenty of locked recent-year cars stolen from private locked garages with no keys at all. I believe car theft is up at least 500% from pre-covid.

And that's to say nothing of the opportunistic catalytic converter thefts if you park your car on the street overnight.

paunchy 2021-08-19 16:14:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Most of these thefts utilize "relay attacks" that simulate the key being in close proximity to the car, using directional antennas to interrogate the key that's sitting in the house and then relay it back to the car. The solution is to disable the proximity feature, but that's inconvenient.

carlmr 2021-08-19 15:02:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Where I live I'd guess the rate is 100 bikes stolen for every car.

With a bike you don't expect it to be there after locking it in the street for more than 15 minutes. I don't know anybody personally whose car was stolen.

2021-08-19 13:22:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

yourusername 2021-08-19 13:45:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

High end bike parts are also in short supply. Popular electric bikes also have months long waiting lists.

alistairSH 2021-08-19 14:15:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]

FWIW, my local bike shop has a pile of electric-assist commuter/townie bikes ready for riders. Supply chain for bikes is definitely broken right now, but they're out there - you just have to look and wait and look some more.

2021-08-19 13:25:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

neals 2021-08-19 13:30:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Come on, we all know this problem and we all know the solution. It's probably red-circuits that we are talking about here. We've all been there: you have your yellow belts full of green-circuits, but the red ones are just so much more complex. You need to set up the entire oil production chain for that, which is tedious and you probably rushed it just 'get a few red circuits so I can get my electric furnace'...

I say, take a step back, take some time and really automate plastic-bar production (yes, even the oil wells and refineries, and don't just put rocks in a container, belt them over there like a grown-up)

Only after producting enough for a full red belt, should you continue expanding into other branches, like robots and faster belts.

Don't they teach this stuff anymore?

TeMPOraL 2021-08-19 13:37:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I'd laugh but then I saw this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28233436.

Yup, Factorio is a nice way to learn about supply chains.

Unfortunately, like almost all videogames, it assumes the whole system is run by a benevolent dictator (i.e. the player). In real life, most of the complexity and most of the waste comes from the system being built incrementally and operated by great many parties in a mix of cooperative and competitive relationships.

swiley 2021-08-19 16:00:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Ah yes, the blackstart situation. So terrible once you switch to nuclear.

neals 2021-08-19 13:38:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I think you're still allowed to laugh

jameshart 2021-08-19 14:05:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Think of biters as a metaphor for competitors, taxes, and regulatory compliance.

spsesk117 2021-08-19 13:33:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I love playing Factorio, but it's moments like above when it starts to stop feeling like a game and it starts to feel like refactoring code at work.

blunte 2021-08-19 14:01:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Factorio is a nice and simplistic (and fun, for a while) way to demonstrated many aspects of software and product development.

You go through basic product planning and design, first quick MVP, then some feedback loops where you recognize some needed design changes, etc. Then once you have it figured out, you want more.

So you start scaling up. That scaling often necessitates refactoring, because it necessitates space and time management (no sense having a bottleneck in your system which limits your growth potential).

Then you have the aliens which represent unexpected problems and failures.

A while back someone posted about playing Factorio with job candidates as a way to see how they thing and solve problems. This is probably much better than most tech interviews. If you can be decent at Factorio, you can probably be pretty decent as a software developer.

aazaa 2021-08-19 16:42:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing plans to build new factories in the US and Japan

I can't help but think that this massive shortage is setting up and equal an opposite reaction 2-3 years down the road: a glut as all this new capacity comes online. Especially given that because companies are now scrambling for chips, they're likely to over-order to ensure future supply.

vvarren 2021-08-19 12:20:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This so-called “transitory inflation” is really starting to seem like it will parlay into full blown inflation.

riggins 2021-08-19 12:30:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/18/opinion/infla...

"In July, some of these sectors (used cars in particular) experienced a big deceleration in inflation, bolstering the argument"

https://news.yahoo.com/us-used-car-bubble-burst-141009925.ht...

"The price index for used vehicles rose 0.2% in July, after having risen at least 7.3% in each of the previous three months. The category was one of the few, along with hotel rooms and airfares, that drove recent inflation, the economist Paul Krugman pointed out on Twitter. “Combined, these three sectors account for…more than 1/2 [half] of inflation over the past three months,” Krugman wrote. In May, in fact, a full third of the overall price rise was due to the surge in used car prices."

CrazyPyroLinux 2021-08-19 16:35:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Krugman is a partisan hack. Whatever he says, do the opposite. https://contrakrugman.com/

jtbayly 2021-08-19 12:52:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Used cars have a natural price cap, and my understanding is that it has been reached. They are too close to the price of a new car to go any higher.

lucasmullens 2021-08-19 13:06:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Maybe, but with new cars being sold for above MSRP, that natural price cap is rising.

nszceta 2021-08-19 13:18:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The price of a new car is whatever the dealer is willing to let it go for. MSRP is a starting point, not the final price, which can be literally anything.

el-salvador 2021-08-19 13:43:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Not everywhere though. I recall Venezuela had unusual car prices about a decade ago.

Car dealership inventory was very low due to currency controls and wait times at car dealerships increased to months.

A slightly used car, inmediately available for sale, was more expensive one than a new one with months wait.

cableshaft 2021-08-19 13:26:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yeah, I normally buy used, and this time I just bought new (technically I leased new, but it's the first time I'm leasing a car in my entire life), because it just didn't make any sense to me to buy a used car for almost the same price as a new car.

throw0101a 2021-08-19 13:33:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> This so-called “transitory inflation” is really starting to seem like it will parlay into full blown inflation.

A lot of the people screaming about inflation were doing so using the argument that there's too much spending and the "excess" money supply will cause the US to turn into Zimbabwe (Fed printers go brrrrrr): demand-pull inflation.

The price fluctuations caused pandemic-related supply issues (cost-push inflation) don't have much to do with money supply and stimulus packages.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation#Keynesian_view

If things get too hot, it's easy enough for interest rates to be pulled up, but given un/employment isn't at pre-pandemic levels, policy makers may let things ride for a while.

frockington1 2021-08-19 15:22:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The Fed doesn't seem to care about inflation adding even more burden to the poor. But hey, at least all the asset rich political donors are happy

rz2k 2021-08-19 14:03:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

While possible, look at lumber prices now[1] in the context of articles from April saying that the high prices would persist.

Economists who study these phenomena tend to be a better guide than reporting that is in the middle of reacting to dramatic signals like shortages and fast price changes.

[1] https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lumber

sprafa 2021-08-19 12:22:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

How is this related to the chip shortage and Toyota?

3pt14159 2021-08-19 12:23:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

When the supply of goods goes down, it pushes prices up.

compscistd 2021-08-19 12:24:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]

But inflation has to do with the supply of money, not the supply of goods, right? Genuine question

mguerville 2021-08-19 12:27:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Inflation is just when prices go up, for whatever reason. Increased supply of money can cause it (and does more often than not), but decreased supply can also do that as it moves the price equilibrium. Unfortunately we have a bit of both at the moment, money supply shot up and lots of supply chains slowed down.

mkj 2021-08-19 12:29:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This central bank says it's prices going up. https://www.rba.gov.au/education/resources/explainers/inflat...

throwawaygh 2021-08-19 13:27:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

No, inflation has to do with the price of goods and services. Inflation is defined as "a general increase in prices and fall in the purchasing value of money".

Inflation can be caused by many things: reduced supply, increased demand, expectation of future price increases, degradation in the quality/desirability of alternative products (eg bond yields), and, yes, an increase in the amount of dollars chasing an asset class/product/service.

Re: your original question, to be a bit pedantic, the supply of money on its own cannot cause inflation in consumer goods except via extremely odd channels (e.g., inflation expectations). A trillion dollars sitting in a bank account has approximately no effect on prices. Like a bullet in a chamber, money at rest has no effect on consumers' experience of inflation until it's propelled forward.

But it's important not to conflate causes with definitions. Also, attributing causes of inflation to particular instances of inflation is often extremely and inherently political. The inflation we've seen in consumer goods is a complex phenomenon with many disparate causes. Beware of anyone selling you a "just-so" story for the cause of inflation in a few dozen disconnected goods and services.

Especially if that story aligns perfectly with their ideology/product/investment/political campaign.

And even more especially if they start the story by conflating one possible cause of inflation with the very definition of the thing.

ajmurmann 2021-08-19 12:42:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There is really three types of inflation: 1. Demand driving higher prices 2. Increased cost driving higher prices 3. Expectation of inflation driving higher prices and this inflation itself

devttyeu 2021-08-19 12:43:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Kind of both? If I were to come up with a formula, I'd say 'prices = GDP / SupplyOfGoods', where GDP is just 'MoneySupply * MoneyVelocity'.

If supply goes down, prices go up. If money supply grows, prices go up. If money velocity (number of times money changes hands in a given period) goes down, prices go down, etc.

(It's worth noting that in 2020 when money supply exploded, money velocity fell by a lot, which is why GDP fell, and why there wasn't that much inflation)

edit: s/inflation/prices/

selykg 2021-08-19 12:28:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Inflation is the rise in costs for goods.

If the supply of these chips causes a loss in supply of in demand items, like cars, then it will cause an increase in the price of cars.

The thoughts are that this is temporary, until the components that are in low supply can catch up and meet the demand.

But if the lack of supply lasts for too long then people become used to the increase price and manufacturers can just keep the price there at the inflated price. Now it's permanent inflation. Or that can happen if the supply doesn't keep up with the demand.

lordnacho 2021-08-19 12:49:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The problem is when those things affect each other. Otherwise we wouldn't care.

macksd 2021-08-19 12:27:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It's is often talked about that way: Wikipedia at least defines it as a general price increase. And that still gives you many of the same effects as a money-supplu-triggered inflation. Many annuities are worth less. The dollars in a savings account are worth less. The minimum wage becames worth less...

ItsMonkk 2021-08-19 14:57:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

People think of inflation like they think of the oceans. If the ice caps melt and water melts in, the shore lines from New York to Tokyo rise slightly. If you track this rise, that's inflation. That's not how it works, and it's not what the CPI tracks. Inflation is much more analogous to inland water, you know, lakes and rivers.

If you give the bottom 80% of the income distribution more money, they will spend it right away like a river. If you give the 81-90%, portion of it will be saved in their lake(say, a 401k) and they will spend some of it. And if you give the top 10% more money, they save all of it in their reservoir.

The way that we have been introducing new money into the system is not by melting ice in the middle of the ocean. We also haven't been raining all over. The key way that new money has been introduced over the past 50 years is by lowering the interest rate. When you lower the interest rate, what happens is that people refinance, and suddenly they can pay less, but quickly realize, oh, I can also borrow more, so they do.

I'll show you a few numbers, which I got by going to the zillow housing affordability page with default settings. I only modified the interest rate, all other values stay the same.

Year | Average Interest Rate 30 Year Fixed | Home you can Afford

1981 | 18.39 | $124,797

1991 | 9.00 | $200,862

2010 | 6.26 | $244,531

2020 | 2.67 | $328,569

And so what we see people and REITs and companies doing is taking out larger and larger loans, and putting those dollars into assets. Companies take out a bond and buy back their own stock. And why wouldn't they, it's profitable because the environment makes it so. And that money flows throughout the system. We can track the inflow of all of this money by looking at say.. the M2. This seems to be the crux of your point, if the amount of money in the M2 has gone up by 40x since 1971, why is inflation not out of control?

The CPI is a measure for inflation that does not track the oceans water level. The M2 tracks that, and as you can see the M2 is out of control. The CPI doesn't track stock purchases. If the CPI were to track stocks weighted at 1971 levels, inflation WOULD be out of control. The CPI tracks, specifically, an average of tangible items that the bottom 80% spends their money on. Therefore the inflation number is based on the height of certain rivers. Now that's an important figure to keep in mind, after all if you get inflation in that bracket and income isn't rising, you quickly run into a revolution. And so that's what the FED has found, if you track the CPI you get the perfect amount of heating to boil the frog without them noticing.

But when you introduce money into the system by lowering interest rates, you are in effect giving the money in proportion to the assets already owned. Someone bought that home in 1981, and someone with the same exact income would bid 328k for it today. You basically tripled(and it was a leveraged sale, so 15x!) that home owners asset, without any need to compare anything else, like actual income rises, or for instance SF has moved upmarket which would also effect prices. And so if you don't have much assets, it's a desert. If you do, it's a rain forest. And because the wealthy already have all that they want, demand for those items that the bottom 80% spend their money on doesn't change. So the supply and demand of those items don't change. So the CPI value stays the same. But money was introduced. If you take a look at the velocity of the M2, the M2V, you can see this take place. The wealthy get the gains of the new M2 dollars, and store it away. The more dollars created, the lower the velocity.

The lower the velocity, the lower inflation. But that rain is being stored in the reservoirs. If inflation causes stored wealth to lose value it's like a dam bursts and the wealthy start to spend and not save their money, it starts as a trickle and ends in a tsunami.

ModernMech 2021-08-19 12:42:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Inflation has to do with purchasing power of a dollar decreasing. I would argue that inflation is something measured at the scale of the entire economy, and you can't say much about inflation looking at a single commodity, or even a single sector.

fab1an 2021-08-19 12:28:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]

If there are fewer goods, prices usually increase, as there is relatively more money chasing fewer goods.

2021-08-19 12:29:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

wiz21c 2021-08-19 13:35:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Only if you let greediness exist.

hindsightbias 2021-08-19 15:13:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I bought 2x4s for $3.60 last weekend.

Just a month ago, HN was rife with lumber apocalypse.

JimTheMan 2021-08-19 12:31:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

A shortage is not inflation

hirako2000 2021-08-19 12:58:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Supply and demand change is what increases or decreases costs. If demand don't adapt, there will be inflation to force it to adapt :)

2OEH8eoCRo0 2021-08-19 13:40:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

What are the barriers here? As sophisticated as automobiles have become I don't see them needing bleeding edge 5nm fabs.

My bigger question is: Why is there not a thriving "small business" chip fab industry?

snarf21 2021-08-19 13:55:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]

My guess it that it is like a refinery, building the factory takes too long with a large capital outlay. For instance, it may take a year or two to build and cost (let's guess) $500M. Now in that time, let's say all the existing players ramp back up (or expand!!) and there is no shortage. You now are producing chips that are cheaper elsewhere and it is hard to recoup your investment. Also, you may be limited on where you can find people with expertise in this area.

pjc50 2021-08-19 14:50:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The minimum cost of entry is in the hundreds of millions to billions, it's not especially environmentally friendly, and you're competing against what would normally be fully-paid-off old production lines from the incumbents.

There's a thriving small business design industry, but the manufacturing is a classical capital-intensive manufacturing business that also requires very specialist staff.

bob33212 2021-08-19 13:58:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

In theory you could wire up an old pentium or 386 and program it to do the same thing some of these chips do but you have the same problem there. No on has a 5M supply of 386s just sitting around in good condition.

dhbradshaw 2021-08-19 12:28:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

As a chip supplier, I'd be feeling a lot of pressure right now. In the short term you can squeeze and the tail can wag the dog for a bit. But longer term this opens the door wide open for new competitors in the market and / or vertical integration.

selykg 2021-08-19 12:30:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I don't think chip suppliers are playing games here, are they?

I think in general all chip manufacturers are at capacity and it comes down to getting in line. And I'm sure many chip manufacturers are trying to expand their capacity. I can't imagine they're sitting there thinking this will last forever.

dhbradshaw 2021-08-19 12:35:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I'm not sure the reasons for the shortage matter. If you have a dependency that's causing you major problems, you try to become less dependent on it.

arglebarglegar 2021-08-19 12:41:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]

they’ll play it to benefit themselves any way they can, why wouldn’t they

bottled_poe 2021-08-19 12:44:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Maybe? It seems to me the overheads of establishing a fab process anywhere near the incumbents are astronomical. I would guess that even this bottleneck in supply would represent a minuscule fraction of that overhead. What are the actual numbers?

phkahler 2021-08-19 12:55:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>> Maybe? It seems to me the overheads of establishing a fab process anywhere near the incumbents are astronomical.

It depends which parts are in short supply. A lot of automotive parts are still on 20+ year old nodes. 90nm to 130 or even 180nm. I would guess those are not the parts experiencing shortages though. So that leaves the fancy stuff. Bummer if a car can't be built because the infotainment SoC can't be obtained because it's competing for production with crypto mining GPUs.

riskable 2021-08-19 12:57:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> the overheads of establishing a fab process anywhere near the incumbents are astronomical.

That's a big opportunity in itself.

pjc50 2021-08-19 12:39:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I'm sure someone's trying to spin up a fab right now, but that's inherently not a quick process.

willis936 2021-08-19 12:49:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Or cheap. Trying to game a short-term downtick in supply by spending 100 Bn USD only to come out the other side as not competitive when you're up-to-speed and your competitors have an abundance of supply and can undercut you by 20%.

It's not a winning strategy.

baybal2 2021-08-19 13:46:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There are tons of n-th tier fabs who seen the shortage coming 4-5 years ago, and trying to move the ladder in the legacy processes.

Rushing to compete with them when they had a 4-5 years headstart is not a wise decision.

mschuster91 2021-08-19 12:49:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> But longer term this opens the door wide open for new competitors in the market and / or vertical integration.

Not really. Chip fabrication requires enormous upstart cost - IIRC, TSMC plans with something like 10-20 billion $ - and a lot of time, to the tune of three years at least (https://pr.tsmc.com/english/news/2033). There are not many companies in the world who have that amount of cash lying around, and even the ones who do like Apple still resort to using TSMC.

Not to mention it's not just the machines from ASML and a host of other vendors plus the cost of building factory-sized ultra clean rooms, but you also need the expert staff trained to operate the entire setup and a lot of fine tuning of parameters which are closely guarded secrets...

bluGill 2021-08-19 16:29:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

IT doesn't have to be. You can be producing chips in a month if you are willing to pay. A clean room can be created, and the process of making of making chips one at a time in labor intensive processes is known. Just that nobody is willing to pay $50k each for their chips, and you need to get that price to pay for all the skilled labor to make a chip one at a time in a lab.

It takes years to setup a fab, but in the end it is a lot more cost effective, which is nobody is bothering to do the manual process even though we know it will work.

dingaling 2021-08-19 14:05:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> There are not many companies in the world who have that amount of cash lying around

Which is why establishing a chip fab to me seems like an obvious national goal. It's a booming market with costs of entry that few private companies can afford, why not make it a national capability? Resilience and profitability in one package.

mschuster91 2021-08-19 14:22:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Even for a nation, that is a lot of money - Germany's budget is about 500B €, a 10-20 B € investment would be a 2-4% of that.

twarge 2021-08-19 12:36:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I've noticed that the shortage of chips is also strongly driven by speculators simply buying up everything in sight and trying to resell at multiples of the cost.

Nasrudith 2021-08-19 13:00:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That is a whole different level - consumer retail as added middlemen. Manufacturers who include multiple in one project don't buy just retail which is oriented at one-at-a-time.

swarnie_ 2021-08-19 12:48:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You think people are buying up Chips designed to go in to Toyota cars?

Surely they're beyond worthless to anyone but the manufacturer and Toyota themselves?

detaro 2021-08-19 13:21:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Parent was speaking of the chip shortage in general, which goes way past cars. Car manufacturers will do what they can to isolate themselves from the open market (and buy the numbers and have the political backing to do so), but demand for non-car parts affects allocation of production capacity to their demands too.

> designed to go in to Toyota cars?

Chips rarely are designed for a specific car, and a car will also contain quite a few that are not strictly specific to automotive.

belter 2021-08-19 12:31:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

"Porsche will provide cars with ‘fake chips’ to reduce delivery times"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28042518

laydn 2021-08-19 12:55:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That makes no sense. I wonder what they mean by "fake" chips? Are they simply not placing the chip on the board, or are they using a footprint compatible different chip (unlikely), or are they completely redesigning the board with another chip which has much better availability? (most likely)

detaro 2021-08-19 13:16:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Presumably they are building cars but leave entire modules out, and then fit them later as supply arrives. Has some benefits over stopping production, if you can afford to have a stockpile of cars around.

jtbayly 2021-08-19 13:04:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Or leaving out the infotainment system.

btbuildem 2021-08-19 13:56:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I don't see this raised anywhere -- but what's so bad about producing fewer cars (the poor neglected shareholders and exec bonuses aside)?

It's almost as if we would need to lean into this, reducing growth and producing fewer cars would be in line with efforts to mitigate the drivers of climate change.

What if car manufacturers pivoted their KPIs and focused on making long-lasting, serviceable vehicles? Toyota is already the worldwide leader in these, as evidenced anywhere that's not smoothly paved suburbia-land.

itsoktocry 2021-08-19 14:05:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>It's almost as if we would need to lean into this, reducing growth and producing fewer cars would be in line with efforts to mitigate the drivers of climate change.

Newer cars pollute far less than old cars.

>What if car manufacturers pivoted their KPIs and focused on making long-lasting, serviceable vehicles?

They do make long-lasting, serviceable vehicles. Where have you been?

gberger 2021-08-19 14:20:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Newer cars pollute far less than old cars.

More cars pollute more than fewer cars.

itsoktocry 2021-08-19 14:25:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>More cars pollute more than fewer cars.

It must be nice to live in a sunny place where you can walk or bike to work.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world, including that which services fancy "green" neighbourhoods, require vehicles.

crazypyro 2021-08-19 14:03:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>(the poor neglected shareholders and exec bonuses aside)

Well, to provide a different perspective, there are car plants around the US that have been shutdown for months and the people formerly employed there haven't been able to work.

Not necessarily arguing that more cars are better, just its not only shareholders and executives who are hurt by the chip shortage.

dmix 2021-08-19 14:41:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Used car prices was up something like 90% and even renting cars is way more expensive already. This is just going to further constrain supply.

I tried renting a car and despite being sold out in the vast majority of places well ahead of time it was 2x the normal base price.

eldaisfish 2021-08-19 14:02:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Consider for a moment the people outside the developed world whose lives are greatly improved by cars.

Scarcity drives prices up putting things out of their reach.

tlocke 2021-08-19 14:08:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Cars tend to diminish quality of life. Local, walkable and cyclable neighbourhoods on the other hand enable people to flourish. When people have to travel by vehicle, trains and trams are superior to cars.

bluGill 2021-08-19 14:12:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Cars are only diminish quality of life when there are too many in a given area. For every person along the way though a car is a greater improvement than no car. Sure each one harms the overall quality of life, but the individual is better off.

eldaisfish 2021-08-19 14:17:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]

how do you propose people in rural Africa transport their goods to markets? Cycle and trams? Perhaps electric buses?

5e92cb50239222b 2021-08-19 14:04:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Have you even been to the developing world? We mostly drive old junkers that were discarded by Americans and Europeans after 15 years of use for breaking and polluting too much.

eldaisfish 2021-08-19 14:16:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

this comment is a textbook example of how out of touch many here are.

The developing world also makes cars. India - to name just one - is among the largest exporters of vehicles to several countries in Africa.

No, people in the developing world do not drive hand-me-downs from the West.

whiteboardr 2021-08-19 16:17:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

@kliment had a pretty good summary on this:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26931498

candyman 2021-08-19 14:54:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I wonder if there will be a long term shift in supply chains toward less "asset light" and more vertically integrated operations with sourcing moved closer to end market demand.

baxuz 2021-08-19 15:08:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Ordered a Yaris Hybrid in June.

Still no info on the order, except that the factory in France is on shutdown in August till the 23rd. Except:

> Until now, Toyota had managed to avoid doing the same, with the exception of extending summer shutdowns by a week in France

Which means it reopens in September...

> Toyota is to slash worldwide vehicle production by 40% in September because of the global microchip shortage.

Oh boy. Hopefully my order is in one of the first in the queue.

JKCalhoun 2021-08-19 14:53:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

So the new car thief will yank the computer(s) out of newer cars, sell them on the black market.

bluGill 2021-08-19 16:32:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

No, because the computer is tied to the VIN, and you need a dealer to change that. Dealers will check to see if the VIN is stolen.

Not all cars have that, manufactures have been using the above to stop theft for years.

1-6 2021-08-19 14:56:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

My Toyota Prius is still sitting around without a catalytic converter on it. Procrastinating because I'm not being called back to the office yet.

GordonS 2021-08-19 13:05:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Is there a credible estimate of when the chip shortage is likely to be over?

baybal2 2021-08-19 13:50:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Digitimes tell of q3-4 2022

rcMgD2BwE72F 2021-08-19 12:35:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]

On one hand, Toyota buys so many chips that their supplier will probably prioritize their orders.

On the other hand, Tesla is tiny compared to Toyota but is probably more flexible and can adapt faster, e.g by using alt chips with new firmware and by using fewer chips per vehicles (to be proven, but we know Model Y has half the number of ECUs of Mach E / ID.4 for instance).

Also, without dealers, Tesla could better manage their build-to-order system and pricing (to push customers towards high margin vehicles and forgo volume growth while the shortage continues)

itsoktocry 2021-08-19 14:15:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>to push customers towards high margin vehicles

Wait, isn't this what people tell us is wrong with dealerships, and why the Tesla method is superior?

rcMgD2BwE72F 2021-08-19 15:51:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Not a sales method, just raising price on the cheapest models. I meant pull not push.

Neil44 2021-08-19 14:26:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I was speaking to a car dealer client the other week and heard some funny stories, like selling off cheap batches of vans with various non-essential electronics missing - just holes in the dash - and the promise that units would be available to fit later.

mensetmanusman 2021-08-19 15:17:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This is a huge deal, imagine that the production of one Apple AirTag means one less vehicle produced.

aembleton 2021-08-19 15:21:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I'm sure a car has many more chips than an AirTag.

waterside81 2021-08-19 13:30:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Can someone explain to me why this wasn't the case before covid? Are the companies who are ahead of the automakers "in line" ordering more than before covid?

bluGill 2021-08-19 16:33:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Cars are not a large market compared to cell phones and other users of ships. Cars are louder than the rest, but not bigger.

They typical car lasts 10-15 years. Cell phones about 2. More people have a cell phone than a car. Sure the car has more chips, but not by enough to make them bigger than phones. (Phones and cars mostly don't use the same process)

Saturdays 2021-08-19 13:44:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Simplest answer: Demand has gone up overall for technology like tvs, computers, game consoles, etc... Meanwhile, during covid the ability to scale (production and supply chain) to meet that demand has been difficult.

kristofferR 2021-08-19 12:27:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Good! Toyota has been sabotaging clean cars because they can't compete [1][2].

Most well known car brands have great electric cars now, but Toyota and their oil lobby buddies are trying to halt the progress. The decline of Toyota sales is good news for the world.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-h...

[2] https://insideevs.com/features/524481/toyota-hybrid-pioneer-...

hownottowrite 2021-08-19 12:48:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Please write back when Tesla learns how to correctly apply paint to a car or fit body panels, or well, pretty much everything else that makes an actual car a car instead of a disposable gadget.

colordrops 2021-08-19 12:51:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The concerns you express aren't noticable or bothersome except to a small percentage of enthusiasts. Teslas are mechanically far more reliable and require less maintenance that other cars.

papercrane 2021-08-19 13:19:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The data doesn't bear that out. Tesla's have consistently ranked near the bottom in reliability surveys and indexes. They're amazing cars, but they've got a long way to go on the build quality and reliability measures.

lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 12:59:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

They have not even been out long enough to make that claim. Especially when comparing to Toyota.

throwaway0a5e 2021-08-19 13:07:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>Especially when comparing to Toyota.

Toyota been saying "don't worry guys, we fixed the rust issues, the new ones won't be rusting out" every year since 1985 and running a more or less rolling recall since the 00s.

Or was that not the implication of your comparison?

Teslas will last a long time because the most important indicator of vehicle reliability is one that they share more or less 1:1 with Toyota, customers who who put very easy miles on vehicles and dutifully maintain them.

That said, I fully agree that we have nowhere near the length of data set we need to know how Teslas will fare in terms of reliability and longevity (not the same thing) after adjusting for how they are used.

itsoktocry 2021-08-19 14:13:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>share more or less 1:1 with Toyota, customers who who put very easy miles on vehicles

Like all the Toyota trucks used in military operations around the world? Those kind of "easy miles"? Comparing these two companies, with vastly different scales of operation, is kind of silly.

throwaway0a5e 2021-08-19 14:48:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]

<rolls eyes>

The edge between manufacturers in any given measurable attribute of vehicle performance is far, far smaller than a bunch of screeching fanboys on the internet would have you believe. If it weren't you'd see far less diversity of vehicles on the road.

The humvee is also used by militaries all around the world. It's not known for particularly great reliability. Militaries have a much difference set of objectives when it comes to labor vs supply chain complexity vs cost than civilian entities and individuals do.

Poor countries in Africa and the middle east use Toyotas a lot for the same reason they still use 7.62 intermediate cartridges a lot. It's what they have, it's what their supply chains are tuned for. It does the job they need, not necessarily with maximal efficiency but well enough they can't justify the cost of switching.

Meanwhile in the civilian market Toyotas cost more, don't do good incentives/rebates and financing is more limited. This drives people on a budget to other brands. This means Toyotas wind up in the hands of people who treat them proportionally nicer. A Tacoma rolls off the lot and into an upscale garage. A Colorado rolls off the dealer lot and into a commercial fleet where it will be driven by a bunch of people who aren't paid enough to care. A Camry will have one ass in one seat for the first 100k and it will go from home to work and home to work. An Altima will spend its first 100k dragging a family of four all of the places they need to go. A Sienna's first owner will go to home Depot, buy 3000lb of pavers and rent the truck to drive it home. A Town and Country's first owner will put that in the van without thinking twice.

See what I'm getting at here? Being expensive up front means that only people who can afford to be nice to things get their hands on them, at least initially, that means the vehicles rack up more miles and years before they see hard use. Any vehicle not fundamentally flawed to begin with can look reliable in the hands of these people. I can present other examples of this if Toyota is too emotional of a topic for people to discuss.

Also it should go without saying that we're talking in broad generalizations here.

I do agree with you that the scale difference between Tesla and Toyota is massive and comparison between them is silly.

lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 13:35:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Or was that not the implication of your comparison?

The implication of my post is Toyota operates on a different scale than Tesla, and due to insufficient time having passed since the advent of Tesla, a claim cannot yet be made. I referenced Toyota because of its objectively highly ranked reliability based on resale price and famously low maintenance costs.

space_rock 2021-08-19 13:08:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You're talking to the parent comment that is making early claims about quality? Oh ok it's only allowed to making negative claims about Tesla

lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 13:29:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Oh ok it's only allowed to making negative claims about Tesla

I do not understand what this means. But I am simply stating that the data for ICE vehicles is far longer and the dataset larger, especially for Toyota and other reputable brands, to make a conclusive claim that Tesla’s reliability (and even maintenance) is less over the whole life of the vehicle.

Although I do not doubt that it is possible for electric vehicles to achieve this claim, and maybe Tesla already has.

altcognito 2021-08-19 12:59:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Most people would consider the ability to put together the stuff you do see as a pretty good indicator of your ability to put together the stuff you can’t see.

kristofferR 2021-08-19 13:28:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Tesla does not equal electric cars. Most well known brands have great electric cars now, not to mention all the new brands like Nio and Polestar.

greenonions 2021-08-19 12:50:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Ah yes, the most important function of a car, the paint...

orwin 2021-08-19 12:57:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The tone of GP is poor, but yes, the paint is really important if you want your car to last more than 5 years, especially if you live near the sea. And if you only take your car out on weekend and summers and can not put your car in a garage, a poor paint job will cost you even more.

altcognito 2021-08-19 12:56:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Rust is a thing.

jve 2021-08-19 13:00:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Don't know if any Tesla car is aluminum, but Tesla Model P surely is.

Edit: Alright, maybe declining trend: https://electrek.co/2017/08/22/tesla-model-3-body-alloy-mix/

rightbyte 2021-08-19 15:11:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I wonder if old alu cars will suffer from metal fatigue.

skhr0680 2021-08-19 12:54:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]

If you want a car to last more than five minutes, then yes, paint is very important

da_big_ghey 2021-08-19 12:46:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Toyota is not "sabotaging clean cars", only trying to delay regulations.

Ma8ee 2021-08-19 12:52:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

So not sabotaging, only obstructing. I'm so pissed at all the auto-makers (with the exception of Tesla). The writing has been on the wall for at least a decade in large neon letters, but they all seem taken by surprise that they suddenly have to produce electric cars.

CountDrewku 2021-08-19 13:05:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Psst you can avoid all of those issues by not buying Toyota. Stop trying to regulate everyone else into what you want. If these EV's are so good it shouldn't be an issue at all.

space_rock 2021-08-19 13:09:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Stop polluting the cities and atmosphere and then it'll be none of our business

CountDrewku 2021-08-19 13:44:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I bike religiously so sorry you're not going to one up me on the "polluting" less scale. Are you going to come take my ICE vehicle from me? Didn't think so.

Drop the authoritarianism it's unbecoming. There's a great country I can suggest you to move to if you want government control over everyone, feel free to PM me for details.

phkahler 2021-08-19 12:56:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

And here I was picturing a 4-axis machine...

melfrey 2021-08-19 14:09:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Will the car price starts to increase due to the chip shortage?

avelis 2021-08-19 14:25:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Price increases already happened in the US for used cars. This will only continue the premium for used cars.

stevewodil 2021-08-19 14:41:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Why is it not affecting new car pricing as dramatically? And why would that continue? Used car prices cannot surpass new car prices surely, so at some point new car prices will be raised because of the low supply and high demand, or new car orders won't be fulfilled for months later

bluGill 2021-08-19 16:44:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Used cars have surpassed new car prices in the past. Generally because new cars can't actually be bought at any price. A car today is sometimes worth more than a better car that doesn't exit.

mnadkvlb 2021-08-19 13:09:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Can someone explain, why this is not reported as in what inflation looks like ?

when Supply cant meet demand we get higher prices, what am i missing here ?

thaumasiotes 2021-08-19 13:15:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That's not really the usual concept of "inflation". Every commodity fluctuates in price. Inflation is when the price of a unit of money falls. Conceptually, it's very easy to distinguish "cars cost more dollars because cars are more expensive" from "cars cost more dollars because dollars are cheaper". In practice, it's difficult to measure the value of a dollar. But in general, inflation looks more like the price of everything going up, and less like the price of cars going up.

(Currently, a lot of different prices are going up, and current inflation is high. But you can't just point to Toyota raising prices and say "See? This is what inflation looks like!" That is what inflation looks like, but it's also what not-inflation looks like.)

itsoktocry 2021-08-19 14:18:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>Can someone explain, why this is not reported as in what inflation looks like ?

What do you mean "this is not reported"? Are you actually looking at the BLS inflation reports?

The fact is, semi-conductor price increases make up a tiny proportion of the average person's cost of living.

throwaway894345 2021-08-19 13:22:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

What are these chips and what is preventing us from scaling up capacity? I’m not challenging that it’s difficult, but the reporting seems shoddy. Maybe I’m the only one who wants to understand this stuff, but these kinds of questions always seem obvious to me (same with COVID vaccine manufacturing).

acdha 2021-08-19 13:45:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Here’s a good rundown: it ultimately all comes back to chip fabs being huge operations with massive upfront costs which makes them sensitive to both the pandemic’s direct effects and secondary problems like the way the auto manufacturers slashed orders in 2020, forcing the chip manufacturers to sign other contracts to avoid idling that much capacity[1], and unrelated problems happening at the same time like cryptocurrency pulling capacity away from useful applications.

https://www.eetimes.com/the-chips-are-down-with-no-relief-in...

1. I’m not sure how much of this has been independently verified but this commenter blames the auto manufacturers heavily: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26931498

varispeed 2021-08-19 14:50:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

There is a lot of scalping going on. I keep an eye on certain parts and as soon the stock comes up, it disappears within minutes. Then you can buy all those chips on AliBaba at 10 times the price. I think government should look into that as this is a huge problem for many businesses.

flyinglizard 2021-08-19 12:40:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Does anyone know the particulars of the shortage? Talking more about the commodity chips. Very hard to get anything from TI, ST or Microchip. Which fabs and nodes are specifically overloaded?

adamcharnock 2021-08-19 12:53:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I'm not sure if this will answer your specific questions, but I found this HN comment from a few months ago to be some very interesting background:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26931498

baybal2 2021-08-19 13:54:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Not nodes, wafer sizes. Most severe shortages are on 200mm.

200mm had 12 month lead times before COVID, now we talk about years.

nickthemagicman 2021-08-19 12:57:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I looked for a simple non-electronic car recently to buy, and found out that the government has mandated numerous safety systems requiring electronics like backup cameras, no seatbelt alarms, blind spot monitoring, lane assist etc, and in the upcoming infrastructure bill there is a rider to add breathalyzers to every new car made in America. (ref below)

Is there an officially designated cost/reduced risk ratio that policy makers can go by to determine if a regulation is worth while?

Is a regulation that costs 1 billion dollars to save 10 lives at 100 million a life considered worthwhile?

Is a regulation that costs 1 billion dollars to save 1 million lives at a cost of 1000 a life worthwhile?

Is there even an officially designated cost per life saved for new safety regulations?

If not it seems like a slippery slope, and the government can never overreach as long as it can justify the regulation by saying it saves a single life.

Reference: https://time.com/6086981/bipartisan-infrastructure-bill-brea...

selimthegrim 2021-08-19 14:03:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You might want to look up the marginal cost of a backup camera what with CCDs these days

nickthemagicman 2021-08-19 15:29:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The manufacturers add a significant markup I imagine.

My original point is what's the cost benefit ratio boundary of enforced safety laws?

ceva 2021-08-19 12:30:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That is good news for planet earth!

chrisseaton 2021-08-19 12:51:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]

We're trying to switch everyone to electric. That's not going to happen if we can't build new cars.

riskable 2021-08-19 13:00:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Well Toyota, specifically made bets that the world would not be moving to electric cars and thus, aren't producing them.

So yeah, Toyota (again, specifically) reducing production actually is better for the environment.

lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 12:57:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

A far better way to reduce energy consumption is to not move mass in the first place.

Not building new cars certainly helps with that goal (since older working ICE cars do not junked anyway, they just go to someone else).

folli 2021-08-19 12:33:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Why? Because older, less efficient cars are being kept on the road for longer?

RutZap 2021-08-19 12:41:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I believe that driving an old car for longer has a smaller environmental impact than consistently driving newer cars as the bulk of emissions is during the manufacturing process. I have no data to support my statement, it's just my hunch. I'd be very keen if someone with the right knowledge can approve or disprove my statement.

zelos 2021-08-19 12:47:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Not true at all, ~80% of emissions from an ICE car are from using and servicing it.

https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-l...

Looking at that chart I think you could build a brand new ICE car, throw it away, build an EV and drive that instead and still come out ahead?

lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 12:56:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Vehicle assumptions: 200 000 km lifetime mileage

I was under the impression decent quality ICE vehicles are proven to last at least 320k km these days, and can easily last 15+ years.

Have electric vehicles even been in use long enough to have sufficient data to compare?

caf 2021-08-19 13:45:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]

If we take as given that "decent quality ICE vehicles are proven to last at least 320k km", then after accounting for both vehicles that are less than decent quality, and vehicles destroyed due to accident, malicious damage or poor maintenance long before they reach that figure, then a fleet average of 200,000 km doesn't seem out of the question.

lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 13:57:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The same factors would seem to apply to EVs (except perhaps poor maintenance, but I am not knowledgeable enough about EVs to be sure), so for the purposes of comparison, I figured apples to apples would be comparing expected lifetimes of both assuming they are not abused or neglected.

caf 2021-08-19 14:26:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It seems to me that they are using an expected lifetime (in the "expected value" sense) of 200,000 km for both types of vehicles.

If those factors apply equally and dominate the reasons vehicles reach EOL, then the expected lifetime not varying significantly between the vehicle types looks like a reasonable assumption.

Using the real expected lifetime taking into account the circumstances that tend to render a vehicle permanently unserviceable in the real world looks like the correct approach to determine how manufacturing costs are amortised over the vehicle lifetime.

ghaff 2021-08-19 13:23:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]

"Easily"

At least for a snowy area, those numbers are probably on the high side for reliable transportation but not 2x on the high side.

Presumably, an EV would at least need a battery replacement well before that point.

lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 13:37:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I presume an EV would rust the same as an ICE due to road salt/ice melt.

istjohn 2021-08-19 13:24:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Electric vehicles are far simpler mechanically, so I expect they will last much longer.

metalliqaz 2021-08-19 15:41:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

only if they have been built to do so.

the same busted (and hard to repair) body parts will occur in both. Think AC, window motors, lamps and switches, etc.

plus, none of the manufacturers seem to be investing in easily replaceable batteries. They'd rather you buy a new car. May as well right? the batt replacement is 60% of the cost!

Tade0 2021-08-19 12:56:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The opposite is true - the manufacturing process is responsible for an average of 7-10 tonnes of CO2, while the same vehicle over its lifetime will emit more than 50 tonnes from the exhaust.

Moreover manufacturers have been reducing their carbon footprint lately. As an example VW reports that 70% of the energy the use in plants is provided by renewable sources.

That being said while emissions rules have been getting more stringent over the years, they're increasingly being followed through introducing EVs, not improvements in engine efficiency.

lostapathy 2021-08-19 13:06:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> As an example VW reports that 70% of the energy the use in plants is provided by renewable sources.

This is a great start, but not where most of the carbon embodied in a new vehicle comes from. The energy used by the VW plants keeps the lights on, air conditioned, and powers tools for assembly. Most of the carbon embodied in a car comes from the energy it takes to mine raw materials and process them into useful metals.

burntwater 2021-08-19 13:48:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]

This seems to be the crucial bit that is always missing from these discussions. I don't doubt that the CO2 emitted in the assembly of the car is less than in the driving. But I'm curious about all the other environmental impacts (of which CO2 is just one small bit). The destruction of wildlife habitat, the poisoning of ground water, etc, that's involved in the retrieval and processing of the raw materials, on up through the chain.

thrwyoilarticle 2021-08-19 12:37:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The question of whether to keep an old car or buy a new, cleaner car is difficult, with many important unspecified variables such as who 'owns' the emissions due to the manufacture of a car (the manufacturer? the first owner? all owners?).

This isn't true for mileage though. If you move closer to work, your commute will emit less.

bottled_poe 2021-08-19 12:50:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Still better for the environment by decades.