Chip shortage: Toyota to cut global production by 40%
11thEarlOfMar 2021-08-19 13:16:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]
We went line down last week due to shortage of a chip for our component.
In reality, the shortage is somewhat self-inflicted, like toilet paper a year ago, but for whatever combination of real demand + hoarding, we can't get chips.
throwawaygh 2021-08-19 13:48:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mathattack 2021-08-19 14:24:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]
There are market failures where the government needs to step in, but this isn’t one. Even with climate change (where they should step in) the government can’t get to the point of saying it’s ok for gas prices to be high.
We don’t want the government to pick winners and losers when it doesn’t need to.
duncanawoods 2021-08-19 14:41:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I guess it's "brand damage" but I feel there would be something more fair and honest if in times of tight supply they ran their own ebay-like store and auctioned them off. It wouldn't feel like a price hike and prices could automatically settle as supply/demand reaches parity.
cronix 2021-08-19 17:05:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]
> MSI has admitted that one of its subsidiaries has been selling RTX 3080 graphics cards on eBay at almost double the MSRP.
> The controversy first appeared on Reddit, where users accused MSI of scalping its own RTX 3080 graphics cards on eBay under the name Starlit Partner. Since, it’s been confirmed in a Justia Trademarks listing that Starlit Partner operates under MSI Computer Corp and was first set up in 2016.
https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/msi-subsidiary-gets-caught...
cinntaile 2021-08-19 14:50:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
duncanawoods 2021-08-19 15:02:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
cptskippy 2021-08-19 15:33:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I've never heard of this brand, are they big in regions outside North America? Or do they function as an ODM for other brands?
duncanawoods 2021-08-19 15:59:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mindslight 2021-08-19 15:15:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
You're assuming that increased profit margins will automatically increase supply chain buffers. But rather, the same incentive to hire too many financialists that "save the company money" will exist, and the extra profit margin will just go to increased dividends.
And increasing the supply chain buffers won't help much right now either, it has to be done during good times. In fact I'd say most of the shortage is from companies deciding to increase their buffers, in the same way as what happened to toilet paper. "Hoarders" and "speculators" are easy illustrations to point to, but the real demand comes from regular consumers silently buying twice as much as they usually do.
verdverm 2021-08-19 15:26:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I read GP's comment as increase prices to decrease hoarding, which in theory could provide the slack in the system. Problem might be that certain products may not be viable if prices get too high. Only those with sufficient margins prior.
s1artibartfast 2021-08-19 16:46:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It kicks low value products out of the market and prioritizes the high value products.
mindslight 2021-08-19 15:44:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It's like foodstuffs during the early pandemic - when you finally found something that they had been out of, you didn't particularly care about the price, and you generally bought extra so you wouldn't run out if it went missing again.
jbay808 2021-08-19 16:56:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]
That's how it works in econ 101, but not necessarily in practice. Prices on many goods are less flexible than commodities like oil and lumber, for many reasons. Manufacturers may be locked into fixed-price contracts or distribution agreements, for example. Or a scarce component might be shared across "budget" and "premium" product lines, but the budget line is too price sensitive to change so the premium product goes up 10x instead. Or the company just borrows money and eats the loss...
vmception 2021-08-19 14:47:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
“Omg these [new market entrants] are messing up my ability to take screenshots of my framerate and never enjoy myself”
Well now its back to business use cases!
varispeed 2021-08-19 14:59:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The scalpers can absorb the rising prices until the desperate companies no longer can afford the increase. That will cause the market crash, which is not good for anyone. I think government should regulate that space so that businesses engaged in scalping could no longer purchase nor sell the chips.
s1artibartfast 2021-08-19 16:51:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The whole point is for manufacturers to raise the price until desperate companies/consumers can no longer afford it and don't buy them. Im not sure where scalpers come in. If prices are set high enough, scalpers can't make a profit.
freewilly1040 2021-08-19 15:05:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
nicoburns 2021-08-19 14:45:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]
s1artibartfast 2021-08-19 16:54:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]
imtringued 2021-08-19 15:20:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]
HPsquared 2021-08-19 15:12:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]
throwawaygh 2021-08-19 15:10:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
2. Price is probably a red herring anyways. I'm willing to bet that fab equipment suppliers are losing out not on price negotiations, but on volume negotiations. I.e., they might even be willing to pay more -- even much more -- than other users, but can't buy in massive quantities so don't go to the front of the line.
3. Is there any (legal) mechanism at the moment that prevents chip makers from increasing prices?
4. Fab equipment producers are small consumers of chips but have such a disproportionately high impact on the rate of future supply. In the midst of a global shortage, we could straight up socialize 0.00...01% of chips produced every year and hand them out for free to fab equipment manufacturers without even effecting the short-term price dynamics. I'm not actually advocating this, but the assertion that earmarking a small number of chips for a particular high-value use fundamentally skew the market in the short-term is probably false.
5. Even if markets can eventually work in this case -- and for the record I'm convinced that this is a perfect example of contract negotiators being extremely myopic -- market dynamics have non-O(1) time complexity and the chip shortage is wrecking havoc on the real economy.
My comment wasn't suggesting price controls or socializing chip fabrication. It was suggesting that we very temporarily give special treatment to a very small consumer of chips that has an outsized impact on production rate, in the midst of a global chip shortage.
s1artibartfast 2021-08-19 17:08:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Why would we do that if the fabs themselves don't think it is worth paying their equipment manufacturers enough to afford their own chips?
Giving "special treatment" is a price control. It is forcing a transaction that otherwise wouldn't settle at that price.
1e-09 2021-08-19 14:31:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]
robotresearcher 2021-08-19 14:54:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
a9h74j 2021-08-19 15:07:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
robotresearcher 2021-08-19 15:36:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]
throwawaygh 2021-08-19 15:43:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]
robotresearcher 2021-08-19 15:59:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]
tbihl 2021-08-19 15:05:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]
throwawaygh 2021-08-19 15:32:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Stability ==== good in undergrad engineering, but not here. We DON'T want production rate to be stable when we have a global supply shortage! Here, a negative feedback loop is stabilizing the system in an undesirable equilibrium.
I.e., the function that's being controlled in "supply of chips", the stable state is "saturated supply", and the negative feedback loop that maintains that equilibrium is "starving chip fab suppliers".
(meta: people down-voting comments on control theory terminology by two different experts in this field at least makes me feel a bit better about the signal:noise ratio on the vote counts on my other comments in this thread ;))
saltcured 2021-08-19 17:00:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]
alisonkisk 2021-08-19 16:02:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]
robotresearcher 2021-08-19 16:13:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
eplanit 2021-08-19 14:33:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dfxm12 2021-08-19 14:46:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mediaman 2021-08-19 17:08:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The amount of disrespect to highly skilled professionals in this thread working like crazy to respond to a massive exogenous shock, and then following it up with the idea that "well, the government should fix it" with no specific idea of how exactly, the government would fix it, is mind-bending.
eplanit 2021-08-19 14:51:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]
https://thehill.com/policy/international/392636-schumer-on-c...
dfxm12 2021-08-19 14:59:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
option 2021-08-19 14:55:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]
baybal2 2021-08-19 14:37:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Unfortunately, no Western government can do it even if its life depends on it.
German trade officials for example went and completely prostrated themselves in front of Taiwanese govt, and TSMC, offering anything short of switching the recognition of China to Taiwan.
It bounced off without any effect.
It was only a blank cheque from USA that made them to even scratch, and that is still pending that cheque being honoured, and cashed out.
will4274 2021-08-19 14:14:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bumby 2021-08-19 14:36:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
There's all kinds of examples, but aerospace is a classic one. There would be no airline industry or commercial space industry if the government wasn't willing to bear a disproportionate amount of the risk when these industries were nascent. There just wasn't enough market demand to incentivize the private sector to do so on their own. So the govt sets up an incentive structure that brings the risk to a level where the private sector is willing to partake. The government is also generally more tolerant of longer-term scenarios than the private sector.
MagicWishMonkey 2021-08-19 14:21:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dimitrios1 2021-08-19 13:50:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]
blululu 2021-08-19 14:08:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
abfan1127 2021-08-19 14:47:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]
kube-system 2021-08-19 14:53:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
imtringued 2021-08-19 15:45:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The cycles only make sense because people like and want them. I.e. they love the scarcity of money. For example, in a depression the return on money is greater than the return on labor, people logically flock to money rather than labor even though real wealth is eroding as people stop working.
nickff 2021-08-19 15:43:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
If you're going to point a finger, the Federal Reserve is a very good institution to point at.
imtringued 2021-08-19 15:41:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
http://rootbug.com/how-could-it-be-solved/taxing-money-throu...
Let me put it in my own words:
If republicans think that unemployment benefits compete with private businesses on labor, then I get to think that 0% interest money competes with labor for capital.
The fundamental problem is that the 0% lower bound combined with a deposit guarantee represents not only a minimum wage for capital. It also presents a job guarantee. A minimum wage doesn't guarantee you a job.
So yes, the Federal Reserve is not responding to market conditions at all. It's artificially holding up interest rates at zero or above. This is causing massive distortions in the economy that can only be fixed by a swiss-army knife of policies. Among one of the needed responses is "free and open printing of money". The world economy is already flirting with disinflation (a reduction in inflation). If you don't have negative interest rates you will need a whole load of "money printing" to keep the system standing in place.
The assumption that a scarce money system (i.e. guaranteed non negative interest) has a fixed velocity of money is absurd. Put interest at -5% and just watch everyone withdraw cash from their bank account. The velocity of cash would be basically be zero and the velocity of money on bank accounts would be extremely high. As the government is doing deficit spending all the money just piles up somewhere and ends up doing nothing. QE is even worse because you cannot spend centralbank reserves to buy groceries.
Ok, let's do the negative interest thing. It sounds like a big hassle right? Just think about the benefits: The first step after negative interest ratess would be to adjust the inflation target to 0% meaning perfect price stability. Actually, you wouldn't target inflation at all because the negative interest rate completely replaces the need for inflation. You would target the CPI itself meaning your goal as the government would be to maintain a CPI of 100 for all eternity. Any deviation would become inexcusable. Meanwhile today inflation is a hack to make a broken money system work.
Don't blame the fed. Blame the money.
throwaway0a5e 2021-08-19 14:59:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
nyokodo 2021-08-19 14:42:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The Fed was established by Congress and the Chair is appointed by the President, however the Fed is still a private institution. That independence makes it a very different organization than what most people mean by government.
MagicWishMonkey 2021-08-19 14:18:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The government needs to recognize the fact that semiconductors are essential to national security and ensure we have the capability to produce our own.
bumby 2021-08-19 15:09:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I might be more time efficient by speeding everywhere, but that efficiency gain needs to be understood in terms of how much additional risk it incurs.
jimbokun 2021-08-19 15:30:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]
If other countries are implementing protectionist policies, like keeping semiconductors for themselves or supplying other nations first to curry favors or improved relationships, for example, it might be in another nations interest to increase fab capacity with its borders to avoid being vulnerable to those political and diplomatic factors.
only_as_i_fall 2021-08-19 13:54:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ortusdux 2021-08-19 14:59:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I am by no means against government intervention. Companies have short memories, and market forces will force eventually pressure a return to JIT. But now is the exact wrong time to intervene.
PaywallBuster 2021-08-19 14:06:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Extra points by diversifying from China/Taiwan
In direct opposition, Auto makers approach of minimizing inventory and producing "just-in-time" caused them to be vulnerable to supply chain or big market shifts
ceejayoz 2021-08-19 14:17:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]
> New cars often include dozens of microchips but Toyota benefited from having built a larger stockpile of chips - also called semiconductors - as part of a revamp to its business continuity plan, developed in the wake of the Fukushima earthquake and tsunami a decade ago.
baybal2 2021-08-19 14:55:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Take a look on the linkedin jobs in Shenzhen.
The trend IS NOT towards diversification. In the last 5 years since Trump's election, US multinationals were increasing their presence in China, not decreasing.
Google for example said to open "a small representative office" in Shenzhen 2 years ago, now it's a full giant RnD centre in the Ping An Tower where they shipped all of Pixel's development.
Apple had RnD offices in China for more than a decade, but they barely acknowledged their existence. Their people in the Kerry Plaza were prohibited by their contract to even show their employment for Apple in their LinkedIn profiles. Their Shenzhen RnD centre is where AirPods were developed, along with many other iPad, and iPhone sub-assemblies. Apple's VR goggles project had its start in Shenzhen as well.
Amazon had no presence whatsoever in China besides a failed Chinese Amazon.com launch. They left China, and then returned to move the whole of their Kindle, and Echo device development to Shenzhen. Now they are working on something rather cryptic there. Some suggest VR goggles of their own design.
Facebook... absolutely bizarrely opened their RnD centre in Shenzhen amid the COVID, just a floor below Google I heard.
Dell, Microsoft, Nvidia, Qualcomm, Intel — all conventional hardware makers were here since nineties, but I think they really doubled down on China recently as well too, to one up the dotcom upstarts in hardware.
PaywallBuster 2021-08-19 15:13:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
e.g. Foxconn investing in capacity outside of China (India) and Apple being part of it (as customer)
baybal2 2021-08-19 15:21:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]
In other words, the Silicon Valley is still going all in on China, despite 4 years of Trump, public scorn, trade war, rising costs etc.
In other words, they really gave up on any vision where they don't critically depend on China, and can run with critical assets in US only.
Causality1 2021-08-19 14:08:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 2021-08-19 14:51:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The U.S. government has decided that it's in our national security interest to remain a net exporter of crops.
If World War III broke out and all the borders shut down, America would still be able to feed herself. The U.K. wouldn't. There would be mass starvation in much of the first world, and people would say "the government should've done something."
All the diabetes is a pretty rough unintended consequence, I'll give you that, but shifting some chip fabs to our shores as a matter of national security doesn't sound like too bad of an idea.
bumby 2021-08-19 14:31:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
While I agree there are definitively some downsides to ag subsidies, I think the real question is if the interventionist downsides are worse than the non-subsidized downsides. As bad as they are, I'm not sure that incentivizing unhealthy food is actual worse than famine.
only_as_i_fall 2021-08-19 14:14:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
wuliwong 2021-08-19 14:40:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
only_as_i_fall 2021-08-19 14:56:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Claiming that the results of ag subsidies have been "nightmarish" with no further elaboration or citation does nothing to advance the conversation, it's simply a strongly worded opinion.
guerrilla 2021-08-19 14:57:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]
adventured 2021-08-19 14:52:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Time and capital investment. It's like this generation of people have never heard of production and supply disruptions, and were oblivious to such things being possible. Frankly, this doesn't matter very much, it's not a critical situation.
The auto market malfunctioning short-term due to a pandemic doesn't present a strong argument for government intervention. Tesla can't make batteries fast enough, there isn't enough supply, its restraining their auto production, the government must step in and fix the problem! It's nonsense. The government should not step in every time there is a short-term problem in a market.
Toyota won't sell as many vehicles. So what.
I know, I know, but what if people have to make due with a three year old vehicle. What if they have to suffer and endure those vehicles being made to last for five or six years. Ten years! The horror.
Toyota won't die. Time will pass, during which necessary investments and adjustments will be made. Supply will be increased. The problem will be fixed. It's as simple as some time and capital investment. The companies that maneuver the best will come out ahead, gaining an advantage on their competitors. And the world keeps on spinning.
Toyota has generated something like $90-$100 billion in operating income the past five years. They have the resources - and then some - to fix the problem. If they choose not to or can't that's their own incompetence, their competitors will eat their lunch. Never feel bad for a corporation earning $20 billion a year. If they can't get their production corrected, someone else will figure it out and reap the benefits.
It does not matter as much as is being portrayed. This is not an important problem and does not warrant the government burning its time and resources to step in and fix (assuming they can help at all). Governments have a lot of other far more important things to be focused on.
JKCalhoun 2021-08-19 15:00:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Thousands of employees lose their livelihoods as factories shut down?
freewilly1040 2021-08-19 15:15:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
only_as_i_fall 2021-08-19 15:09:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Slartie 2021-08-19 14:57:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
That's also obvious: the inefficiency in governments originates largely from coordination overhead between many competing entities with overlapping responsibilities. Self-regulating systems like markets do not eliminate that overhead, they just use other means of coordination that trade some of the complexity overhead for a time overhead - instead of having to coordinate a complex set of rules, you now have to give the system enough time to "find" its stable state. But when time is of the essence, an intelligent, singular entity without the need for coordination with anyone besides the entities to be regulated can always outcompete the self-regulating system when it comes to short-term stabilization (though not necessarily with regard to long-term stabilization, but that's not the issue here).
freewilly1040 2021-08-19 15:18:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Slartie 2021-08-19 15:40:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I'd call that quite a lot of "market management". But as everyone could see it resulted in the fastest vaccination ramp-up worldwide (excluding Israel, which was a bit faster, but is also much smaller than the US and which had its own way to get "preferred" access to vaccine produced in the EU).
ramesh31 2021-08-19 13:54:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
MagicWishMonkey 2021-08-19 14:20:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
evilduck 2021-08-19 14:28:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
nradov 2021-08-19 14:42:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]
JohnWhigham 2021-08-19 15:03:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]
adventured 2021-08-19 15:18:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
You could have hardly picked a worse example than the government roads system (including our thousands of dilapidated bridges), which is in absolutely horrific condition and is a humiliating example for the government. It's the opposite of a good example.
That's all due to lack of funding, one might suggest? They're not lacking for funds. They spent our money on blowing up other countries and then (occasionally) attempting to rebuild them. Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Korea and 497 other cases of meddling and foreign adventurism. There rests $10 trillion in infrastructure money. No, they have had plenty of our money to spend, and they chose to squander it.
What ever would we do if we didn't have those hyper incompetent clowns to manage our roads.
GPS is trivial. If Russia can do it, various US private corporations could easily do it just the same.
anotherman554 2021-08-19 15:25:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]
abfan1127 2021-08-19 14:48:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bumby 2021-08-19 15:13:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]
While a lot of industry seem obvious and worth the investment today, when they were nascent that wasn't the case. Would GPS exist if private companies had to fund the rocket and satellite research just to tell you where you are on the map? Or would the aircraft industry exist?
Most of those types of high-risk, nebulous reward (at least on short-to-near-term timescales) industries are predicated on government investment. SpaceX, as great as they are, probably wouldn't exist if they didn't have NASA as a customer.
abfan1127 2021-08-19 15:28:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Back in the 90s (during the age of early GPS), Motorola (iirc) tried to launch a satellite phone company too.
NASA isn't that big of a customer. DirecTV was a huge consumer of rockets. As it turns out, SpaceX doesn't sell to them because they own their own rocket company.
bumby 2021-08-19 15:41:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Correct, but this is an after-the-fact understanding. They spend money to launch now because the industries are no longer nascent and being launched on platforms designed around government investment. The key to my point is that the government spends money when the industries are young and risky to develop platforms. If those platforms work out that helps the private sector have a less risky path down the road. This is why telecoms weren't rushing to develop rockets in the 1960s.
>NASA isn't that big of a customer.
This is very much the same thing. Early on, NASA was really the only SpaceX customer and NASA helped keep them from going bankrupt [1]. In addition, NASA made early launches more palatable because the government is self-insured. Government contracts help usher along young, risky companies until they could have a less risky business model that the private sector feels more comfortable with. It's very similar to aerospace development over 100 years ago with the Wright brothers and Curtis vying for Army contracts. Without those contracts, they are as much hobbyists as entrepreneurs.
[1] https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/elon-musk-says-nasas-1-5-billio...
ramesh31 2021-08-19 14:53:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Veliladon 2021-08-19 12:27:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I guess 18 months of doing the extremely heavy lifting for the whole industry has taken its toll and now they're in the same boat.
dd36 2021-08-19 12:32:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
doikor 2021-08-19 12:48:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Basically if a part can only be produced by one or two parties there is too much risk of that source going away and disrupt everything else. This also applies all the way down the chain so if you got part A that can be made by 20 contractors but if all of those contractors depend on the same source then that part is also on the list of "stockpile this part enough to get over most disruptions"
Spooky23 2021-08-19 17:08:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jnorthrop 2021-08-19 12:40:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Ekaros 2021-08-19 12:38:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The-Bus 2021-08-19 14:59:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]
1) https://www.ntotank.com/blog/resin-material-market-shortages... 2) https://www.wsj.com/articles/supply-chain-bottlenecks-drive-...
lmilcin 2021-08-19 13:12:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
zeke 2021-08-19 12:56:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
throwaway0a5e 2021-08-19 13:14:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Instead you either stop/slow production or shove them in your products and hope for the best.
hef19898 2021-08-19 13:45:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
throwaway0a5e 2021-08-19 13:55:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Jtsummers 2021-08-19 14:16:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]
JIT, in Lean, does not mean no buffer, it means as little of a buffer as you can get away with. If you have issues with delivery like this on a regular basis, then you'd increase the buffer size (at least temporarily) and also take your suppliers to task for sending the wrong thing over and over.
The buffer size should be increased if any upstream supply issues exist that regularly cause a shortage. Ideally, you should address those issues themselves, but if you have and they can't (or won't) be fixed then you increase your buffer to accommodate reality. However, the shortage is itself a signal. Too high an inventory permits supply issues to persist without being addressed for a long time because you never get the signal about the issues with them (the downstream production slowdowns).
hencq 2021-08-19 16:51:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Yeah, spot on. One of my college professors used to compare it to a river with rocks in it. If you want to safely sail on the river, you can either a) keep the water level high enough or b) remove the rocks. In a production system inventories/buffers are the water level and variance is the rocks. The philosophy of JIT is to remove as much variance from your system as possible so you can lower your buffers. If you have identified areas of high variance you're forced to keep buffers until you've removed enough variance to lower your buffers.
cptskippy 2021-08-19 15:57:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Eh... I would argue that JIT means making that buffer someone else's problem.
I was doing EDI at a logistics firm that contracted with Seagate who provided HDDs to Hitachi for their SANs around 2006. Hitachi was doing JIT for their manufacturing, Seagate however was just speculating Hitachi's demand and literally stockpiled HDDs in this firms warehouses geolocated next to Hitachi's factories.
We would pickup stock from Seagate and ship it to these warehouses where they would remain Seagate's property until Hitachi requested it, then we would simply transfer ownership to Hitachi.
Interestingly, we used rail shipping as a buffer to reduce warehouse size by sending freight on slow/cheap/indirect routes.
Jtsummers 2021-08-19 16:04:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]
If Hitachi couldn't consume your delivered HDDs as fast as they were delivered and anticipated any kind of delay/disruption could ever happen, they'd have some buffer of their own.
cptskippy 2021-08-19 16:46:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The logistics firm was the buffer allowing Seagate's product rate and Hitachi's consumption to be asymmetric in nature.
hef19898 2021-08-19 16:00:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]
EDIT: What you describe sounds more like VMI, vendor managed inventory, than JIT. Both require half way reliable forecasts and collaborative planning so to worl properly. Have to agree so that both solutions tend to push inventory risk to suppliers. Done correctly, overall inventory does decrease so.
cptskippy 2021-08-19 16:34:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The interesting thing was that Seagate avoided managing inventory by outsourcing to the logistics firm. The stock was technically Seagate's until it was ordered by Hitachi but the logistics company took immediate possession as pallets rolled out of the factory.
> The last bit works, as long as the slow transportation is closely controlled.
It didn't need to be controlled, just scheduled. You knew you need x units by d. The factory output n per week, so you could stagger shipments by way of different lines.
All of the inventory was tracked by serial numbers and it was interesting to watch it move because supply was often delivered to the warehouse out of order or shipments weeks apart arrived simultaneously.
hef19898 2021-08-19 16:37:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]
akg_67 2021-08-19 12:38:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]
danparsonson 2021-08-19 13:28:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
gameswithgo 2021-08-19 13:09:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bluGill 2021-08-19 14:00:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]
davidrm 2021-08-19 14:14:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
No they don't, automotive semiconductors suppliers have an "obligation" to manufacture the component for at least 15 years, which makes managing the production output planning, spare parts etc. much easier. It's not like walking into your supermarket and finding out that your favorite brand of chocolate is no longer available. There are minor exceptions, and sudden changes in the demand might affect the immediate availability, but at the very least the part is almost guaranteed to be produced for 15 years with defined notice policies. Microcontrollers don't have a pin-compatible drop in replacement when they get discounted, but many different ICs do, like power supplies, transistors etc., so discounting them is not a big deal.
e.g.: https://www.nxp.com/products/product-information/nxp-product...
> Participating products are available for a minimum of 10 years from product launch (15 years from product launch for many products developed for the automotive, telecom and medical segments), and are supported by standard end-of-life notification policies.
bluGill 2021-08-19 14:25:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
hef19898 2021-08-19 13:33:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Kiro 2021-08-19 14:12:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
hef19898 2021-08-19 14:25:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
wheelinsupial 2021-08-19 15:56:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Toyota and a lot of the concepts that come out of Toyota are ideals to strive for. It doesn’t mean everything is like that, which is hard to understand from just reading the lean literature.
varispeed 2021-08-19 15:43:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It is smart to project to the world that just in time manufacturing is effective and then stockpile parts. This will get you ahead of competition if there is a problem like we experience now.
minikites 2021-08-19 12:47:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]
nszceta 2021-08-19 13:14:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Jtsummers 2021-08-19 13:51:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Think of each stage of the system, not just the components you bring in but also the partially assembled components you produce along the way as well as the finished product. US auto manufactures (in particular) had an operating method where they kept inventories high at all stages. This wasn't entirely deliberate. They weren't saying, "We need 5000 car doors just sitting here." They were, instead, saying, "We can't stop making doors just because everything else down the line is stopped due to <event> so keep churning them out and pile them up." The tail end inventory of "complete" vehicles were sitting there due, often, to quality issues (misaligned assemblies, missing parts, whatever the reason may be).
So inventory piles up everywhere along the chain, which also worked because there was a large turnaround period when retooling and equipment downtime (not always planned). Because Nobody Ever Gets Credit for Problems that Never Happened [0] there was an underinvestment in maintenance and improvement efforts. High inventory across the line papers over this issue. Lean discourages high inventory in order to make these issues apparent so that they can get the attention that they deserve. Also, rework is viewed as waste so quality issues should be addressed when they're discovered, not by assembling hundreds or thousands of vehicles incorrectly and then fixing them, fix the assembly line issues causing that misassembly.
[0] https://web.mit.edu/nelsonr/www/Repenning=Sterman_CMR_su01_....
sct202 2021-08-19 13:37:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]
And then multiply across everyone in a supply chain for a single product having to deal with waiting to receive giant parts orders from their vendors before they could start their own giant order to supply their customers.
hef19898 2021-08-19 13:36:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
brobdingnagians 2021-08-19 12:58:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ghaff 2021-08-19 13:12:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Cars in, say, the 1960s were not "more reliable in general." It's not all semiconductor-related of course--they also rusted out quickly in areas that got snow--but 5 years/50K miles is about what you were looking at for vehicle lifetime. Also much lower fuel efficiency, to say nothing of lack of what we'd consider routine safety features today.
UseStrict 2021-08-19 14:02:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ohples 2021-08-19 13:22:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
everdrive 2021-08-19 14:12:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]
hef19898 2021-08-19 13:25:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
On that, Availability is the result of all the rest. With the important part of planned Availability, because that excludes stuff like planned maintenance. Arguably modern cars beat old ones in that category.
ghaff 2021-08-19 13:34:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
What's probably true is that older cars that aren't rusted out can probably be kept running by people with the appropriate mechanical skills even in the absence of proper factory/3rd party parts for longer than modern vehicles can. Given intact supply chains, modern vehicles are more available overall. But, to the point of the article, modern vehicles are more susceptible to lack of parts.
hef19898 2021-08-19 13:43:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
That being said, if I'd go on a 2k + mile trip I would put in some work to get the car fit for this. Looking at my dads VW camper, I'll just fill up drinking water, maybe gas and fuel. Without a serious amount of preventive maintenance those cars do have a tendency to break down so. I guess we are just not used to this kind cars or machinery anymore.
clipradiowallet 2021-08-19 14:21:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I think that is the largest appeal to me of older cars. There are only so many parts that can fail, and they are all repairable with some time and hand tools(and maybe a Haynes manual!).
(for people unfamiliar, a Haynes manual is a 3rd party manual customized for most makes/models of automobiles. It describes with pictures how to perform [almost] any repair.)
hef19898 2021-08-19 14:27:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]
OldHand2018 2021-08-19 14:20:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The chip-ification of cars has been going on for a really, really long time.
hef19898 2021-08-19 14:29:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ghaff 2021-08-19 14:38:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]
hef19898 2021-08-19 14:39:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
kwhitefoot 2021-08-19 13:55:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I don't remember how far my 1965 Austin Mini van had done by the time I scrapped it in 1978 but I'm quite sure it was much more than 50 k miles.
ghaff 2021-08-19 14:35:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]
eldaisfish 2021-08-19 14:04:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]
kwhitefoot 2021-08-19 16:44:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I merely added a small counter argument to the idea that cars of the period were necessarily short lived.
hef19898 2021-08-19 14:36:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]
WillPostForFood 2021-08-19 15:38:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Is that true though? Average length of car ownership is at an all-time high of over 8 years. It was under 5 years just 20 years ago. Maybe length of ownership doesn't correlate to length of car life, but seems like a strong signal that car quality and lifespan is going up.
didgeoridoo 2021-08-19 13:23:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ghaff 2021-08-19 13:28:35 +0000 UTC [ - ]
CryptoPunk 2021-08-19 13:55:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ghaff 2021-08-19 14:13:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
detaro 2021-08-19 13:00:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
raisedbyninjas 2021-08-19 13:25:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
kube-system 2021-08-19 13:35:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]
fulafel 2021-08-19 14:04:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
andruby 2021-08-19 13:23:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
There must be hundreds of chips in a modern car: Engine, ABS, wireless key, cruise control, radio, audio, electric windows, gps, battery management, airbags, seat-belt check, sensors, climate control, ...
silon42 2021-08-19 14:27:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
possibly climate control (not needed for short rides, a fan will do), maybe even radio (can always add later) and electric windows
I'd buy that car if it was cheaper... I'd need AWD though, trailer hitch...
atonse 2021-08-19 13:20:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Wouldn’t even power steering use it? Headlights?
Engines would have engine control units running some kind of real-time OS, anti lock brakes, anti traction systems, airbags, power locks with wireless keys. Climate control vs just “AC fan on”
Even some ignition systems have chips that do some kind of key exchange to start the car. (Yes you can bypass it but now you’re making a car that’s easier to steal)
jccooper 2021-08-19 15:53:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]
josephd79 2021-08-19 13:02:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]
cuu508 2021-08-19 13:18:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]
And a related question: modern cars are full of tech because that's what market demands. Can we expect the trend to reverse at some point?
throwaway0a5e 2021-08-19 13:24:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]
For compact/subcompact sedans/hatches and midsize sedans the OEMs typically make a super stripped down variant so they can advertise an insanely low "starting at" MSRP. Dealers don't typically buy a lot of them so they're very hard to find and you'll likely have little room to haggle on price.
Nowadays there's a pretty long list of mandatory electronics and everything has at least one bus network in it but if you want to minimize the number of extraneous modules on that network then a stripped down economy car is your best bet.
aembleton 2021-08-19 15:19:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Go for the Access version and you don't even get a radio.
cuu508 2021-08-19 16:11:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bluGill 2021-08-19 14:07:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]
No, they are nice to haves. anyone who is looking to save money on a car will buy a used car with those features because they get the cheaper price and the features.
lallysingh 2021-08-19 14:00:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
akiselev 2021-08-19 13:32:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Rear view cameras are mandatory since ~2014 so I don't think this is possible.
jaywalk 2021-08-19 14:09:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
throwaway9870 2021-08-19 13:15:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]
gameswithgo 2021-08-19 13:18:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]
hef19898 2021-08-19 13:49:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]
w-m 2021-08-19 13:14:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
That would be hard to pull off without chips. Although I guess you could keep it completely isolated from the rest of the car.
jrwoodruff 2021-08-19 13:34:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bri3d 2021-08-19 14:20:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
teorema 2021-08-19 13:16:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
NickNameNick 2021-08-19 13:32:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
(Including by people who've been disqualified...)
gameswithgo 2021-08-19 13:10:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
refurb 2021-08-19 15:05:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
And they were actually much more reliable and efficient. Fuel injection was light years ahead of carburetors.
And I’d argue it would be impossible to meet emissions without computer control of the engine.
Cloudef 2021-08-19 13:15:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Unklejoe 2021-08-19 15:44:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]
phkahler 2021-08-19 12:50:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]
lostapathy 2021-08-19 13:01:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]
One criticism of Toyota's production system is that they aren't so much "just in time" as it sounds on the surface, rather they just force their suppliers to run the warehouse instead of them. Which still makes sense - Toyota wants to be in the car business, not the warehouse and logistics businesses.
bluGill 2021-08-19 14:10:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]
lostapathy 2021-08-19 14:12:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
icegreentea2 2021-08-19 12:49:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]
In fact, I wonder how much of this really is chip supply vs general supply. Most articles on this open with headlines about chip supply, but then contains quotes from Toyota about "supply" and "parts" in general.
technothrasher 2021-08-19 13:38:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
creeble 2021-08-19 14:39:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
They said their sales were up 50-60% over the last 18 mos, and that raw materials supply is down by a similar margin.
These are shock absorbers, not chips or toilet paper.
It seems like we're seeing the delayed effect on supply chains over the pandemic. There is surely no value in hoarding shock absorbers, and if distributors were the hoarders, they seem to just be sitting on them, not raising prices.
ruuda 2021-08-19 13:09:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]
> The Covid pandemic boosted demand for appliances that use chips, such as phones, TVs and games consoles.
SOCs in phones and game consoles are produced on very different processes than chips used in cars, no? Cars don't need the smallest dies or most energy-efficient chips. These industries are not competing for the same capacity. Or am I missing something?
detaro 2021-08-19 13:13:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
kube-system 2021-08-19 13:28:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
fouric 2021-08-19 14:38:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]
[1] https://techtaiwan.com/20210816/tsmc-speciality-technology/
gameswithgo 2021-08-19 13:11:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
perhaps the engine ECU is not the chip that is in low supply
petre 2021-08-19 13:21:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Yes, some of them are different. Consumer chips are not industrial norm, they have narrower environmental operating ranges.
The foundries producing automotive chips shifted production to consumer chips during the lockdowns, as the auto production lines were on hold. This caused supply chain disruptions. Add to that US > China IP export bans and you have a black swan event.
wallaBBB 2021-08-19 13:27:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
[1] https://www.renesas.com/us/en/about/press-room/notice-regard...
imaginariet 2021-08-19 12:28:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
We are now witnessing the effects of our modern hyper-efficient just-in-time global manufacturing system.
akg_67 2021-08-19 12:35:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Toyota is one of the last automaker to reduce production due to the current chip shortage, because they had enough chips for 18-24 months of production.
Edit: It seems some of Toyota factories in Southeast Asia have shutdown due to Covid spread in those countries resulting in shortage of parts supplied to factories in Japan. Reported to be 40% reduction in production.
monkeynotes 2021-08-19 12:40:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Edit, what the other poster said.
boramalper 2021-08-19 14:53:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]
> This drive for efficiency leads to brittle systems that function properly when everything is normal but break under stress. And when they break, everyone suffers. The less fortunate suffer and die. The more fortunate are merely hurt, and perhaps lose their freedoms or their future. But even the extremely fortunate suffer — maybe not in the short term, but in the long term from the constriction of the rest of society.
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/07/the_security_...
patentatt 2021-08-19 12:59:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]
imaginariet 2021-08-19 13:25:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
peytn 2021-08-19 15:58:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]
monocasa 2021-08-19 16:34:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
There'd be no reason for it with a public health care system.
HideousKojima 2021-08-19 13:09:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
whall6 2021-08-19 14:47:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
WillPostForFood 2021-08-19 15:43:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
wiz21c 2021-08-19 13:34:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
wonderwonder 2021-08-19 13:04:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
xyzelement 2021-08-19 13:28:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I am older than that (40 and my wife is 35) and while we have been independent professionals for a while, we now have a 1 year old so this summer for the first time in our lives we bought a house and a car.
It was definitely harder to find a house (mainly less availability driving competitive bidding) and it took a little longer to find a car and we ended up having to pay MSRP.
However the thing I can say is - the incremental cost/hassle of having to do these things during the pandemic supply crunch is almost irrelevant compared to having to do this stuff at all. We paid say 3% more for the car and ok maybe 10/20% for the house than we would have otherwise, obviously that's painful but if I was "just stepping into adulthood and financial responsibility" I'd look to avoid this stuff altogether.
EG: do you need to own a house? If you're a single person, "throwing away" money on a relatively inexpensive rental might be much wiser than "investing" in a house in a seller's market. Likewise, if you're young and single then you should relatively easily (depending on where you live of course) arrange your life to not need a car. It was very easy for us in NYC, of course may be different for you.
The point is that in my mind, "adulthood and financial responsibility" don't have to translate "got my own house and car" but simply "making wise financial decisions given my situation" so if there's room to be flexible, be flexible.
fartcannon 2021-08-19 13:54:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The market is so screwed up that even a crash that halved the price would still be 4 times price back then.
xyzelement 2021-08-19 14:01:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Second, you may not be doing proper calculations. I would not have - before I bought a house. Do you count property taxes, upkeep, larger water and electricity bills, possibly longer commute times/needing a car, relative lack of mobility, air conditioner/heating/roofing/siding/repair, lawn maintenance, etc.
Yes sure, if I bought this house 10 years ago, it would have been great. But I wouldn't know 10 years ago that I'd want this house, and for example dealing with all the above shit as a single man would have been stupid. There were also points in my life where I was very open to relocation for the right job, something home ownership would have put friction on.
it's very common to think of only a pro or a con of a decision (if I bought earlier, it would have only cost X) but you're not factoring the risk that existed at the time, nor the commitment you're creating on yourself, not the carrying costs I described above.
May not be relevant to you but I feel fine about "losing out" on 20 years of house appreciation (if I bought at 20 not 40) because I avoided all that stuff for 20 years, too.
fartcannon 2021-08-19 15:24:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
My parents bought a detatched home at 20 with minimum wage jobs. I bought a townhouse at 40 with a high paying career. My kid is going to be 60 by the time he can afford a home.
It's fucked. Buy now.
xyzelement 2021-08-19 15:35:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Ok you certainly should go for it, but I'll give you one analysis that I have. We bought in a NYC suburb (for a bunch of reasons) and here's what I think constitutes price risk for me.
At the end of the day, a house is worth what someone can and is willing to pay for it. Right now, there's reasons the demand is high for near-NYC housing because (a) people aren't sure they need to be near NYC long-run and don't want to risk it (b) it's an easiest move to make to leave the city and not go far (c) supply is low because with covid, fewer people are willing to have an open house (d) now everyone is in a rush to upsize so space is at a premium.
All of these are demand factors that can change. EG: (a) it may become clear in 1-2 years that permanent remote is an option for many people, relieving demand pressure on NYC and the area. (b) once people are comfortable with leaving the city they may be comfortable moving further afield. (c) the pent-up supply of folks who didn't sell in 2020/2021 may come to market, especially if a and b occur, causing people to want to sell before it's "too late" (d) everyone who needed up upsize may have done it, relieving that pressure.
Also, for New York state specifically, with the number of wealthy people leaving the states, it feels inevitable that state and property taxes will rise, making all of this even less attractive.
And finally, interest rates are ridiculously low right now, rising rates will be a damper on prices when that happens.
Obviously there plenty of reasons it could also go up, but if your model is so simple "it's fucked so it's always goes up" you may get fucked too.
ghaff 2021-08-19 13:39:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
As for housing, it's perfectly normal to rent for a while until you know you want to settle down in a location for an extended period of time.
devoutsalsa 2021-08-19 13:33:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]
nosianu 2021-08-19 13:41:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]
"Roofing Industry Faces Unprecedented Supply Disruption" (April 27, 2021)
https://www.roofingcontractor.com/articles/95590-roofing-ind...
wonderwonder 2021-08-19 14:56:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]
BossingAround 2021-08-19 13:44:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
xyzelement 2021-08-19 13:55:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ipqk 2021-08-19 13:10:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dalbasal 2021-08-19 13:24:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The way house prices work, often, is more or less banks determining prices via mortgage eligibility. Banks agree that a house is worth X. They lend X. That becomes the price. Buyers tend to be available.
People are so quick to see that credit expansion fuels price inflation in other areas, even the economy at large, but somehow diminish or ignore this with housing.
Obviously, supply constraints avoidable or otherwise, affect supply. In any given year though, the supply of housing does not change a ton. Where they do, you don't tend to have wild inflation... though you do often see bigger houses.
It's impossible to decouple housing from monetary policy. Housing is one of the few ways that buying power gets from A to B, where B is not a financial institution or direct spending.
sandworm101 2021-08-19 13:29:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]
There is a significant voice that would like to price cars out of private ownership. Traffic, pollution, safety, urban sprawl ... pick your evil and someone wants to eliminate private cars for that reason.
I regularly read about how the next wave of cars will all be somehow "shared", that we will whistle and they will appear at our doorsteps ready to carry us off to our 9-to-5 jobs in shiny glass office towers. I just don't see that happening anytime soon. Total conversion to electric cars in 10 years, maybe. Conversion to total ride-sharing and/or mass transit, doubtful in 30.
yalogin 2021-08-19 13:21:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]
JackPoach 2021-08-19 13:35:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ptero 2021-08-19 14:02:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
wyager 2021-08-19 13:30:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
smeyer 2021-08-19 14:43:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]
wyager 2021-08-19 15:18:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jondwillis 2021-08-19 13:55:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It has lost value against lots of commodities and "real" goods.
wonderwonder 2021-08-19 13:42:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
BurningFrog 2021-08-19 13:45:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The wish to inflate housing prices causes NIMBY-ism!
beached_whale 2021-08-19 13:23:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ThePadawan 2021-08-19 13:31:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I'd prefer it if ICE cars were as expensive as possible in order for the planet not to burst into flames.
ren_engineer 2021-08-19 13:22:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]
the worst part is our government is rewarding them for bad behavior, the article mentions the billion dollar chip subsidy program. So these companies made money outsourcing and will now make more by bringing it back. Instead they should put a massive tariff on any chip not made in the US. Companies that invested here would be rewarded for loyalty
dcolkitt 2021-08-19 13:28:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Moreover the chips were never outsourced. Toyota never made its own chips, nor is it feasible to. You seem to have some sort of idealized view where a company internally manufactures everything it needs starting from raw materials. That’s not how it works, and that’s never how it worked.
ren_engineer 2021-08-19 13:36:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Toyota is just a symptom, every other car manufacturer and other industries are facing shortages as well. The US economy is now strangled because our supply chain got outsourced for "efficiency" that didn't account for potential disruptions
lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 13:42:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Voters would have rewarded politicians who supported these tariffs by voting them out of office for making all their toys more expensive. Everyone likes cheaper stuff and more stuff in the short term.
ren_engineer 2021-08-19 13:57:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]
lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 14:13:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
misja111 2021-08-19 13:34:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
- shareholders (more profit)
- consumers (lower prices)
Second, you could say shareholders == Wall Street, but you could just as well say that shareholders are pension holders, banks, insurances and small private investors. All of these simply want to have return on their investment that is as high as possible. If that's good or bad is an interesting question, but the bottom line is that very few people are without blame here.
ren_engineer 2021-08-19 13:40:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
plenty of people have been warning for decades how the reliance on manufacturing from other countries could have major consequences. The fact that a small island like Taiwan is probably the most important geo-political issue in the world could have been prevented with a little bit of long term planning
oldsklgdfth 2021-08-19 14:47:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The timing of my life events is one of the things I am most grateful of.
I graduated in 2014 and within a couple years I bought a house. Strong job market for an employee and low interest rate.
I know people that were getting PhDs, because they started undergrad in the aftermath of the housing bubble and couldn't find jobs when finished. I also know people that decided to buy a house before the bubble and are still stuck underwater, preventing them to pursue opportunities not in their area. I also know people that went into medicine as tuition became ridiculous and have no way of servicing their student loans.
I guess what I'm getting at is count your blessings. Others may not be as fortunate as you.
blunte 2021-08-19 14:04:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
On the other hand, if you're in politics, finance, or executive business management, it's been a really, really great last 40+ years.
teorema 2021-08-19 13:13:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dahfizz 2021-08-19 13:19:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]
codesnik 2021-08-19 13:24:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mikeyouse 2021-08-19 13:32:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
wonderwonder 2021-08-19 13:43:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mikeyouse 2021-08-19 14:00:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dahfizz 2021-08-19 13:45:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
alistairSH 2021-08-19 14:11:35 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bluGill 2021-08-19 16:08:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dcolkitt 2021-08-19 13:30:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]
i_haz_rabies 2021-08-19 13:38:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bluGill 2021-08-19 16:16:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dahfizz 2021-08-19 13:43:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
alistairSH 2021-08-19 14:13:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]
malfist 2021-08-19 13:31:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]
heliodor 2021-08-19 13:47:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Which is exactly the point being made by the parent comment that you can't capitalize on the upside. You'd have to sell and step out for a while.
malfist 2021-08-19 14:23:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Sure, my purchase costs went up some, but no where close to the additional value I got over normal for my sale. Put it this way, I paid a few hundred dollars, maybe a thousand dollars more for the car than I would normally, but I sold my old car for thousands more than I normally would have been able too.
That's capitalizing on the upside for sure.
dahfizz 2021-08-19 14:03:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Today, they are worth x+y% of a new car.
If you trade up now, you will pay less for the new car than if you traded up two years ago.
Similar situation for houses. Even if we assume all houses have inflated by the same rate, you can still downsize and cash out. Your existing $600K house is inflated 25% and you can sell for $750k. You downsize to a $400k house which is inflated to $500k. You oversold for $150k, but only overpaid by $100k and you pocket the difference.
mlac 2021-08-19 13:27:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dahfizz 2021-08-19 13:41:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
frockington1 2021-08-19 15:18:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]
burntwater 2021-08-19 13:26:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]
gonzo41 2021-08-19 13:16:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
lordgroff 2021-08-19 13:44:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I don't know that I'd do it again. The number of avoided-death-by-split-second close calls that I racked up in about five years is just too high... Now that I'm a bit older and have children, seems irresponsible.
This is in a city with relatively developed bike infrastructure, including separated lanes in some places. (Some) drivers just don't give a damn, and while I wish it was different, I don't see it changing any time soon either.
rcMgD2BwE72F 2021-08-19 16:24:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]
fires10 2021-08-19 13:24:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dshoemaker 2021-08-19 13:37:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]
neon_electro 2021-08-19 13:34:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dijit 2021-08-19 13:39:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
(Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Malmö)
Something else is the problem. Maybe infrastructure or terrain.
bongoman37 2021-08-19 13:22:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
acdha 2021-08-19 13:31:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I use one of these: https://yubabikes.com/cargobikestore/electric-boda-boda/
A relative uses one of these in the Boston area, year round:
https://www.ternbicycles.com/us/bikes/472/gsd
A friend loves this for their family:
https://www.r-m.de/en-us/bikes/packster-70/
Not cheap, but an order of magnitude less than a car ($10k/year by AAA’s numbers) over the lifetime of the bike.
steve_adams_86 2021-08-19 14:01:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It wasn’t cheap initially ($7000 CAD), but the cost per km drops enormously every year while the bike still rides as well as ever. The kids have all loved it, too. My youngest is disappointed when we drive places - he wants to walk or ride all year.
We do have a temperate climate which helps. Our cold days in winter are typically around 5 degrees outside of cold snaps, but even then we rarely dip below 0.
It’s a major quality of life improvement for us. They’re amazing grocery getters, you don’t get all sweaty on them, kids tend to love it, and they’re quite a bit easier to buy, maintain, and park than a car.
We went with the spicy curry because of its insane cargo capacity (we’ve used it for its full capacity many times, especially while bike camping), but you can spend far less if you don’t need to carry that weight.
wonderwonder 2021-08-19 13:44:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
carlmr 2021-08-19 13:20:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
rcMgD2BwE72F 2021-08-19 16:26:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Is there similar plans in the US or at least some states?
dont__panic 2021-08-19 13:25:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
And that's to say nothing of the opportunistic catalytic converter thefts if you park your car on the street overnight.
paunchy 2021-08-19 16:14:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]
carlmr 2021-08-19 15:02:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]
With a bike you don't expect it to be there after locking it in the street for more than 15 minutes. I don't know anybody personally whose car was stolen.
yourusername 2021-08-19 13:45:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
alistairSH 2021-08-19 14:15:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]
neals 2021-08-19 13:30:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I say, take a step back, take some time and really automate plastic-bar production (yes, even the oil wells and refineries, and don't just put rocks in a container, belt them over there like a grown-up)
Only after producting enough for a full red belt, should you continue expanding into other branches, like robots and faster belts.
Don't they teach this stuff anymore?
TeMPOraL 2021-08-19 13:37:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Yup, Factorio is a nice way to learn about supply chains.
Unfortunately, like almost all videogames, it assumes the whole system is run by a benevolent dictator (i.e. the player). In real life, most of the complexity and most of the waste comes from the system being built incrementally and operated by great many parties in a mix of cooperative and competitive relationships.
spsesk117 2021-08-19 13:33:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]
blunte 2021-08-19 14:01:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
You go through basic product planning and design, first quick MVP, then some feedback loops where you recognize some needed design changes, etc. Then once you have it figured out, you want more.
So you start scaling up. That scaling often necessitates refactoring, because it necessitates space and time management (no sense having a bottleneck in your system which limits your growth potential).
Then you have the aliens which represent unexpected problems and failures.
A while back someone posted about playing Factorio with job candidates as a way to see how they thing and solve problems. This is probably much better than most tech interviews. If you can be decent at Factorio, you can probably be pretty decent as a software developer.
aazaa 2021-08-19 16:42:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I can't help but think that this massive shortage is setting up and equal an opposite reaction 2-3 years down the road: a glut as all this new capacity comes online. Especially given that because companies are now scrambling for chips, they're likely to over-order to ensure future supply.
vvarren 2021-08-19 12:20:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
riggins 2021-08-19 12:30:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
"In July, some of these sectors (used cars in particular) experienced a big deceleration in inflation, bolstering the argument"
https://news.yahoo.com/us-used-car-bubble-burst-141009925.ht...
"The price index for used vehicles rose 0.2% in July, after having risen at least 7.3% in each of the previous three months. The category was one of the few, along with hotel rooms and airfares, that drove recent inflation, the economist Paul Krugman pointed out on Twitter. “Combined, these three sectors account for…more than 1/2 [half] of inflation over the past three months,” Krugman wrote. In May, in fact, a full third of the overall price rise was due to the surge in used car prices."
CrazyPyroLinux 2021-08-19 16:35:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jtbayly 2021-08-19 12:52:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
lucasmullens 2021-08-19 13:06:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
nszceta 2021-08-19 13:18:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]
el-salvador 2021-08-19 13:43:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Car dealership inventory was very low due to currency controls and wait times at car dealerships increased to months.
A slightly used car, inmediately available for sale, was more expensive one than a new one with months wait.
cableshaft 2021-08-19 13:26:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
throw0101a 2021-08-19 13:33:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
A lot of the people screaming about inflation were doing so using the argument that there's too much spending and the "excess" money supply will cause the US to turn into Zimbabwe (Fed printers go brrrrrr): demand-pull inflation.
The price fluctuations caused pandemic-related supply issues (cost-push inflation) don't have much to do with money supply and stimulus packages.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation#Keynesian_view
If things get too hot, it's easy enough for interest rates to be pulled up, but given un/employment isn't at pre-pandemic levels, policy makers may let things ride for a while.
frockington1 2021-08-19 15:22:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]
rz2k 2021-08-19 14:03:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Economists who study these phenomena tend to be a better guide than reporting that is in the middle of reacting to dramatic signals like shortages and fast price changes.
sprafa 2021-08-19 12:22:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]
3pt14159 2021-08-19 12:23:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
compscistd 2021-08-19 12:24:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mguerville 2021-08-19 12:27:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mkj 2021-08-19 12:29:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
throwawaygh 2021-08-19 13:27:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Inflation can be caused by many things: reduced supply, increased demand, expectation of future price increases, degradation in the quality/desirability of alternative products (eg bond yields), and, yes, an increase in the amount of dollars chasing an asset class/product/service.
Re: your original question, to be a bit pedantic, the supply of money on its own cannot cause inflation in consumer goods except via extremely odd channels (e.g., inflation expectations). A trillion dollars sitting in a bank account has approximately no effect on prices. Like a bullet in a chamber, money at rest has no effect on consumers' experience of inflation until it's propelled forward.
But it's important not to conflate causes with definitions. Also, attributing causes of inflation to particular instances of inflation is often extremely and inherently political. The inflation we've seen in consumer goods is a complex phenomenon with many disparate causes. Beware of anyone selling you a "just-so" story for the cause of inflation in a few dozen disconnected goods and services.
Especially if that story aligns perfectly with their ideology/product/investment/political campaign.
And even more especially if they start the story by conflating one possible cause of inflation with the very definition of the thing.
ajmurmann 2021-08-19 12:42:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
devttyeu 2021-08-19 12:43:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]
If supply goes down, prices go up. If money supply grows, prices go up. If money velocity (number of times money changes hands in a given period) goes down, prices go down, etc.
(It's worth noting that in 2020 when money supply exploded, money velocity fell by a lot, which is why GDP fell, and why there wasn't that much inflation)
edit: s/inflation/prices/
selykg 2021-08-19 12:28:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]
If the supply of these chips causes a loss in supply of in demand items, like cars, then it will cause an increase in the price of cars.
The thoughts are that this is temporary, until the components that are in low supply can catch up and meet the demand.
But if the lack of supply lasts for too long then people become used to the increase price and manufacturers can just keep the price there at the inflated price. Now it's permanent inflation. Or that can happen if the supply doesn't keep up with the demand.
lordnacho 2021-08-19 12:49:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]
macksd 2021-08-19 12:27:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ItsMonkk 2021-08-19 14:57:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
If you give the bottom 80% of the income distribution more money, they will spend it right away like a river. If you give the 81-90%, portion of it will be saved in their lake(say, a 401k) and they will spend some of it. And if you give the top 10% more money, they save all of it in their reservoir.
The way that we have been introducing new money into the system is not by melting ice in the middle of the ocean. We also haven't been raining all over. The key way that new money has been introduced over the past 50 years is by lowering the interest rate. When you lower the interest rate, what happens is that people refinance, and suddenly they can pay less, but quickly realize, oh, I can also borrow more, so they do.
I'll show you a few numbers, which I got by going to the zillow housing affordability page with default settings. I only modified the interest rate, all other values stay the same.
Year | Average Interest Rate 30 Year Fixed | Home you can Afford
1981 | 18.39 | $124,797
1991 | 9.00 | $200,862
2010 | 6.26 | $244,531
2020 | 2.67 | $328,569
And so what we see people and REITs and companies doing is taking out larger and larger loans, and putting those dollars into assets. Companies take out a bond and buy back their own stock. And why wouldn't they, it's profitable because the environment makes it so. And that money flows throughout the system. We can track the inflow of all of this money by looking at say.. the M2. This seems to be the crux of your point, if the amount of money in the M2 has gone up by 40x since 1971, why is inflation not out of control?
The CPI is a measure for inflation that does not track the oceans water level. The M2 tracks that, and as you can see the M2 is out of control. The CPI doesn't track stock purchases. If the CPI were to track stocks weighted at 1971 levels, inflation WOULD be out of control. The CPI tracks, specifically, an average of tangible items that the bottom 80% spends their money on. Therefore the inflation number is based on the height of certain rivers. Now that's an important figure to keep in mind, after all if you get inflation in that bracket and income isn't rising, you quickly run into a revolution. And so that's what the FED has found, if you track the CPI you get the perfect amount of heating to boil the frog without them noticing.
But when you introduce money into the system by lowering interest rates, you are in effect giving the money in proportion to the assets already owned. Someone bought that home in 1981, and someone with the same exact income would bid 328k for it today. You basically tripled(and it was a leveraged sale, so 15x!) that home owners asset, without any need to compare anything else, like actual income rises, or for instance SF has moved upmarket which would also effect prices. And so if you don't have much assets, it's a desert. If you do, it's a rain forest. And because the wealthy already have all that they want, demand for those items that the bottom 80% spend their money on doesn't change. So the supply and demand of those items don't change. So the CPI value stays the same. But money was introduced. If you take a look at the velocity of the M2, the M2V, you can see this take place. The wealthy get the gains of the new M2 dollars, and store it away. The more dollars created, the lower the velocity.
The lower the velocity, the lower inflation. But that rain is being stored in the reservoirs. If inflation causes stored wealth to lose value it's like a dam bursts and the wealthy start to spend and not save their money, it starts as a trickle and ends in a tsunami.
ModernMech 2021-08-19 12:42:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
fab1an 2021-08-19 12:28:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]
hindsightbias 2021-08-19 15:13:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Just a month ago, HN was rife with lumber apocalypse.
JimTheMan 2021-08-19 12:31:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
hirako2000 2021-08-19 12:58:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]
2OEH8eoCRo0 2021-08-19 13:40:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
My bigger question is: Why is there not a thriving "small business" chip fab industry?
snarf21 2021-08-19 13:55:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]
pjc50 2021-08-19 14:50:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
There's a thriving small business design industry, but the manufacturing is a classical capital-intensive manufacturing business that also requires very specialist staff.
bob33212 2021-08-19 13:58:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dhbradshaw 2021-08-19 12:28:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
selykg 2021-08-19 12:30:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I think in general all chip manufacturers are at capacity and it comes down to getting in line. And I'm sure many chip manufacturers are trying to expand their capacity. I can't imagine they're sitting there thinking this will last forever.
dhbradshaw 2021-08-19 12:35:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
arglebarglegar 2021-08-19 12:41:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bottled_poe 2021-08-19 12:44:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]
phkahler 2021-08-19 12:55:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It depends which parts are in short supply. A lot of automotive parts are still on 20+ year old nodes. 90nm to 130 or even 180nm. I would guess those are not the parts experiencing shortages though. So that leaves the fancy stuff. Bummer if a car can't be built because the infotainment SoC can't be obtained because it's competing for production with crypto mining GPUs.
riskable 2021-08-19 12:57:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]
That's a big opportunity in itself.
pjc50 2021-08-19 12:39:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
willis936 2021-08-19 12:49:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It's not a winning strategy.
baybal2 2021-08-19 13:46:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Rushing to compete with them when they had a 4-5 years headstart is not a wise decision.
mschuster91 2021-08-19 12:49:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Not really. Chip fabrication requires enormous upstart cost - IIRC, TSMC plans with something like 10-20 billion $ - and a lot of time, to the tune of three years at least (https://pr.tsmc.com/english/news/2033). There are not many companies in the world who have that amount of cash lying around, and even the ones who do like Apple still resort to using TSMC.
Not to mention it's not just the machines from ASML and a host of other vendors plus the cost of building factory-sized ultra clean rooms, but you also need the expert staff trained to operate the entire setup and a lot of fine tuning of parameters which are closely guarded secrets...
bluGill 2021-08-19 16:29:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It takes years to setup a fab, but in the end it is a lot more cost effective, which is nobody is bothering to do the manual process even though we know it will work.
dingaling 2021-08-19 14:05:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Which is why establishing a chip fab to me seems like an obvious national goal. It's a booming market with costs of entry that few private companies can afford, why not make it a national capability? Resilience and profitability in one package.
mschuster91 2021-08-19 14:22:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
twarge 2021-08-19 12:36:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Nasrudith 2021-08-19 13:00:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]
swarnie_ 2021-08-19 12:48:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Surely they're beyond worthless to anyone but the manufacturer and Toyota themselves?
detaro 2021-08-19 13:21:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
> designed to go in to Toyota cars?
Chips rarely are designed for a specific car, and a car will also contain quite a few that are not strictly specific to automotive.
belter 2021-08-19 12:31:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
laydn 2021-08-19 12:55:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
detaro 2021-08-19 13:16:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]
btbuildem 2021-08-19 13:56:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It's almost as if we would need to lean into this, reducing growth and producing fewer cars would be in line with efforts to mitigate the drivers of climate change.
What if car manufacturers pivoted their KPIs and focused on making long-lasting, serviceable vehicles? Toyota is already the worldwide leader in these, as evidenced anywhere that's not smoothly paved suburbia-land.
itsoktocry 2021-08-19 14:05:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Newer cars pollute far less than old cars.
>What if car manufacturers pivoted their KPIs and focused on making long-lasting, serviceable vehicles?
They do make long-lasting, serviceable vehicles. Where have you been?
gberger 2021-08-19 14:20:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]
More cars pollute more than fewer cars.
itsoktocry 2021-08-19 14:25:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It must be nice to live in a sunny place where you can walk or bike to work.
Unfortunately, the rest of the world, including that which services fancy "green" neighbourhoods, require vehicles.
crazypyro 2021-08-19 14:03:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Well, to provide a different perspective, there are car plants around the US that have been shutdown for months and the people formerly employed there haven't been able to work.
Not necessarily arguing that more cars are better, just its not only shareholders and executives who are hurt by the chip shortage.
dmix 2021-08-19 14:41:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I tried renting a car and despite being sold out in the vast majority of places well ahead of time it was 2x the normal base price.
eldaisfish 2021-08-19 14:02:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Scarcity drives prices up putting things out of their reach.
tlocke 2021-08-19 14:08:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bluGill 2021-08-19 14:12:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
eldaisfish 2021-08-19 14:17:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]
5e92cb50239222b 2021-08-19 14:04:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
eldaisfish 2021-08-19 14:16:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The developing world also makes cars. India - to name just one - is among the largest exporters of vehicles to several countries in Africa.
No, people in the developing world do not drive hand-me-downs from the West.
candyman 2021-08-19 14:54:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
baxuz 2021-08-19 15:08:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Still no info on the order, except that the factory in France is on shutdown in August till the 23rd. Except:
> Until now, Toyota had managed to avoid doing the same, with the exception of extending summer shutdowns by a week in France
Which means it reopens in September...
> Toyota is to slash worldwide vehicle production by 40% in September because of the global microchip shortage.
Oh boy. Hopefully my order is in one of the first in the queue.
JKCalhoun 2021-08-19 14:53:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bluGill 2021-08-19 16:32:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Not all cars have that, manufactures have been using the above to stop theft for years.
1-6 2021-08-19 14:56:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]
GordonS 2021-08-19 13:05:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
rcMgD2BwE72F 2021-08-19 12:35:38 +0000 UTC [ - ]
On the other hand, Tesla is tiny compared to Toyota but is probably more flexible and can adapt faster, e.g by using alt chips with new firmware and by using fewer chips per vehicles (to be proven, but we know Model Y has half the number of ECUs of Mach E / ID.4 for instance).
Also, without dealers, Tesla could better manage their build-to-order system and pricing (to push customers towards high margin vehicles and forgo volume growth while the shortage continues)
itsoktocry 2021-08-19 14:15:52 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Wait, isn't this what people tell us is wrong with dealerships, and why the Tesla method is superior?
rcMgD2BwE72F 2021-08-19 15:51:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Neil44 2021-08-19 14:26:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mensetmanusman 2021-08-19 15:17:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]
waterside81 2021-08-19 13:30:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bluGill 2021-08-19 16:33:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]
They typical car lasts 10-15 years. Cell phones about 2. More people have a cell phone than a car. Sure the car has more chips, but not by enough to make them bigger than phones. (Phones and cars mostly don't use the same process)
Saturdays 2021-08-19 13:44:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]
kristofferR 2021-08-19 12:27:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Most well known car brands have great electric cars now, but Toyota and their oil lobby buddies are trying to halt the progress. The decline of Toyota sales is good news for the world.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-h...
[2] https://insideevs.com/features/524481/toyota-hybrid-pioneer-...
hownottowrite 2021-08-19 12:48:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
colordrops 2021-08-19 12:51:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
papercrane 2021-08-19 13:19:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]
lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 12:59:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
throwaway0a5e 2021-08-19 13:07:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Toyota been saying "don't worry guys, we fixed the rust issues, the new ones won't be rusting out" every year since 1985 and running a more or less rolling recall since the 00s.
Or was that not the implication of your comparison?
Teslas will last a long time because the most important indicator of vehicle reliability is one that they share more or less 1:1 with Toyota, customers who who put very easy miles on vehicles and dutifully maintain them.
That said, I fully agree that we have nowhere near the length of data set we need to know how Teslas will fare in terms of reliability and longevity (not the same thing) after adjusting for how they are used.
itsoktocry 2021-08-19 14:13:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Like all the Toyota trucks used in military operations around the world? Those kind of "easy miles"? Comparing these two companies, with vastly different scales of operation, is kind of silly.
throwaway0a5e 2021-08-19 14:48:01 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The edge between manufacturers in any given measurable attribute of vehicle performance is far, far smaller than a bunch of screeching fanboys on the internet would have you believe. If it weren't you'd see far less diversity of vehicles on the road.
The humvee is also used by militaries all around the world. It's not known for particularly great reliability. Militaries have a much difference set of objectives when it comes to labor vs supply chain complexity vs cost than civilian entities and individuals do.
Poor countries in Africa and the middle east use Toyotas a lot for the same reason they still use 7.62 intermediate cartridges a lot. It's what they have, it's what their supply chains are tuned for. It does the job they need, not necessarily with maximal efficiency but well enough they can't justify the cost of switching.
Meanwhile in the civilian market Toyotas cost more, don't do good incentives/rebates and financing is more limited. This drives people on a budget to other brands. This means Toyotas wind up in the hands of people who treat them proportionally nicer. A Tacoma rolls off the lot and into an upscale garage. A Colorado rolls off the dealer lot and into a commercial fleet where it will be driven by a bunch of people who aren't paid enough to care. A Camry will have one ass in one seat for the first 100k and it will go from home to work and home to work. An Altima will spend its first 100k dragging a family of four all of the places they need to go. A Sienna's first owner will go to home Depot, buy 3000lb of pavers and rent the truck to drive it home. A Town and Country's first owner will put that in the van without thinking twice.
See what I'm getting at here? Being expensive up front means that only people who can afford to be nice to things get their hands on them, at least initially, that means the vehicles rack up more miles and years before they see hard use. Any vehicle not fundamentally flawed to begin with can look reliable in the hands of these people. I can present other examples of this if Toyota is too emotional of a topic for people to discuss.
Also it should go without saying that we're talking in broad generalizations here.
I do agree with you that the scale difference between Tesla and Toyota is massive and comparison between them is silly.
lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 13:35:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The implication of my post is Toyota operates on a different scale than Tesla, and due to insufficient time having passed since the advent of Tesla, a claim cannot yet be made. I referenced Toyota because of its objectively highly ranked reliability based on resale price and famously low maintenance costs.
space_rock 2021-08-19 13:08:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]
lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 13:29:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I do not understand what this means. But I am simply stating that the data for ICE vehicles is far longer and the dataset larger, especially for Toyota and other reputable brands, to make a conclusive claim that Tesla’s reliability (and even maintenance) is less over the whole life of the vehicle.
Although I do not doubt that it is possible for electric vehicles to achieve this claim, and maybe Tesla already has.
altcognito 2021-08-19 12:59:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
kristofferR 2021-08-19 13:28:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
greenonions 2021-08-19 12:50:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
orwin 2021-08-19 12:57:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
altcognito 2021-08-19 12:56:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jve 2021-08-19 13:00:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Edit: Alright, maybe declining trend: https://electrek.co/2017/08/22/tesla-model-3-body-alloy-mix/
rightbyte 2021-08-19 15:11:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
skhr0680 2021-08-19 12:54:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]
da_big_ghey 2021-08-19 12:46:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Ma8ee 2021-08-19 12:52:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
CountDrewku 2021-08-19 13:05:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
space_rock 2021-08-19 13:09:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
CountDrewku 2021-08-19 13:44:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Drop the authoritarianism it's unbecoming. There's a great country I can suggest you to move to if you want government control over everyone, feel free to PM me for details.
melfrey 2021-08-19 14:09:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
avelis 2021-08-19 14:25:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
stevewodil 2021-08-19 14:41:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bluGill 2021-08-19 16:44:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mnadkvlb 2021-08-19 13:09:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]
when Supply cant meet demand we get higher prices, what am i missing here ?
thaumasiotes 2021-08-19 13:15:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
(Currently, a lot of different prices are going up, and current inflation is high. But you can't just point to Toyota raising prices and say "See? This is what inflation looks like!" That is what inflation looks like, but it's also what not-inflation looks like.)
itsoktocry 2021-08-19 14:18:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
What do you mean "this is not reported"? Are you actually looking at the BLS inflation reports?
The fact is, semi-conductor price increases make up a tiny proportion of the average person's cost of living.
throwaway894345 2021-08-19 13:22:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
acdha 2021-08-19 13:45:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]
https://www.eetimes.com/the-chips-are-down-with-no-relief-in...
1. I’m not sure how much of this has been independently verified but this commenter blames the auto manufacturers heavily: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26931498
varispeed 2021-08-19 14:50:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]
flyinglizard 2021-08-19 12:40:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]
adamcharnock 2021-08-19 12:53:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
baybal2 2021-08-19 13:54:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
200mm had 12 month lead times before COVID, now we talk about years.
nickthemagicman 2021-08-19 12:57:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Is there an officially designated cost/reduced risk ratio that policy makers can go by to determine if a regulation is worth while?
Is a regulation that costs 1 billion dollars to save 10 lives at 100 million a life considered worthwhile?
Is a regulation that costs 1 billion dollars to save 1 million lives at a cost of 1000 a life worthwhile?
Is there even an officially designated cost per life saved for new safety regulations?
If not it seems like a slippery slope, and the government can never overreach as long as it can justify the regulation by saying it saves a single life.
Reference: https://time.com/6086981/bipartisan-infrastructure-bill-brea...
selimthegrim 2021-08-19 14:03:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]
nickthemagicman 2021-08-19 15:29:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]
My original point is what's the cost benefit ratio boundary of enforced safety laws?
ceva 2021-08-19 12:30:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]
chrisseaton 2021-08-19 12:51:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]
riskable 2021-08-19 13:00:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
So yeah, Toyota (again, specifically) reducing production actually is better for the environment.
lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 12:57:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Not building new cars certainly helps with that goal (since older working ICE cars do not junked anyway, they just go to someone else).
folli 2021-08-19 12:33:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]
RutZap 2021-08-19 12:41:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
zelos 2021-08-19 12:47:28 +0000 UTC [ - ]
https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-l...
Looking at that chart I think you could build a brand new ICE car, throw it away, build an EV and drive that instead and still come out ahead?
lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 12:56:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I was under the impression decent quality ICE vehicles are proven to last at least 320k km these days, and can easily last 15+ years.
Have electric vehicles even been in use long enough to have sufficient data to compare?
caf 2021-08-19 13:45:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]
lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 13:57:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
caf 2021-08-19 14:26:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]
If those factors apply equally and dominate the reasons vehicles reach EOL, then the expected lifetime not varying significantly between the vehicle types looks like a reasonable assumption.
Using the real expected lifetime taking into account the circumstances that tend to render a vehicle permanently unserviceable in the real world looks like the correct approach to determine how manufacturing costs are amortised over the vehicle lifetime.
ghaff 2021-08-19 13:23:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]
At least for a snowy area, those numbers are probably on the high side for reliable transportation but not 2x on the high side.
Presumably, an EV would at least need a battery replacement well before that point.
lotsofpulp 2021-08-19 13:37:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
istjohn 2021-08-19 13:24:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]
metalliqaz 2021-08-19 15:41:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
the same busted (and hard to repair) body parts will occur in both. Think AC, window motors, lamps and switches, etc.
plus, none of the manufacturers seem to be investing in easily replaceable batteries. They'd rather you buy a new car. May as well right? the batt replacement is 60% of the cost!
Tade0 2021-08-19 12:56:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Moreover manufacturers have been reducing their carbon footprint lately. As an example VW reports that 70% of the energy the use in plants is provided by renewable sources.
That being said while emissions rules have been getting more stringent over the years, they're increasingly being followed through introducing EVs, not improvements in engine efficiency.
lostapathy 2021-08-19 13:06:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
This is a great start, but not where most of the carbon embodied in a new vehicle comes from. The energy used by the VW plants keeps the lights on, air conditioned, and powers tools for assembly. Most of the carbon embodied in a car comes from the energy it takes to mine raw materials and process them into useful metals.
burntwater 2021-08-19 13:48:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]
thrwyoilarticle 2021-08-19 12:37:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
This isn't true for mileage though. If you move closer to work, your commute will emit less.
Scoundreller 2021-08-19 14:46:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
In mine, dairy is a strategic industry that is coddled by government so that we can have a local source. But every country thinks that so there’s foes and allies that can supply us UHT or powder milk on a moment’s notice. And if our milk supply disappeared tomorrow, everyone over 1y could substitute with 10000000 different things for nutrition.
Cars are another. Every country props up its auto industry, so why worry about a domestic supply?
Meanwhile, there are critical components, pharma ingredients or other inputs built in 1 factory in a country we could likely end up in a big dispute with.
Just goes to show that industry protection has nothing to do with risk/dependence on that product, and everything to do with picking and choosing which industries are important voting bases.
jvanderbot 2021-08-19 15:37:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
According to this page, sorting by cost, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat...
the most expensive fab is 33 Giga$. TSMC is 17G$. pennies on the dollar in the bucket on our 1-3Trillion infrastructure bill.
Make america fab again.
EDIT: it appears this is in the 2T infrastructure bill. https://www.eetimes.com/biden-ups-ante-to-50-billion-for-chi...
SavantIdiot 2021-08-19 17:06:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Another part is lax environmental laws. Hillsboro Oregon is embroiled in a suit with Intel where Intel dumped 100x the fluorine into the air that they claimed when D1X was first pitched. Don't need to worry about that stuff in Asia (for now).
Also, lead time. The x-ray litho machines take years to build and test. There are only two companies that make Intel's testers, and the lead time is years. So a "quick fix" isn't possible.
Speaking opinion: in the long term, it is mostly rich people trying to get richer that caused this. If greedy CEOs and shareholders would just be humans for once and think about the future we wouldn't have this trainwreck. That ain't ever gonna happen.
alfalfasprout 2021-08-19 17:02:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]
phreeza 2021-08-19 15:45:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jvanderbot 2021-08-19 15:55:55 +0000 UTC [ - ]
But, if we assume they were, just double the cost as a sign-on bonus for all the engineers and poach away.
This is problem that can be solved with money, and not a lot of it in the grand scheme of things.
dave_sullivan 2021-08-19 16:27:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Making chips seems to be quite a bit more complicated than making and launching rockets, I don't think even Elon Musk could do it.
jvanderbot 2021-08-19 16:43:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Exports won't offset operating costs here in the USA, but perhaps we could apply some ingenuity to that through national research investments and the ensuing startup ecology. The ancillary benefits of funding research and small business infrastructure around the big fabs would be huge.
Sandia national labs has a ~3.5 annual Giga$ budget! That's _entirely_ publicly funded and represents about half of TSMC's operating budget (https://investor.tsmc.com/english/encrypt/files/encrypt_file... , looking at 50% profit yielding ~12 G$)
zsmi 2021-08-19 16:48:40 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jvanderbot 2021-08-19 16:52:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]
cma 2021-08-19 17:06:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bumby 2021-08-19 16:38:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Tbf, many (most?) government websites are built and maintained by private companies. Remember the ACA website debacle a few years back? The government was mad at the contractor for building a shoddy product. They claimed they would take action against them but I’m not sure anything happened. If the government should be held to task on anything it should be an inability to write good contracts or hold companies feet to the fire. I’ve heard civil servants are unwilling to to the latter because they don’t want to hurt businesses or are afraid of legal protests.
thedougd 2021-08-19 16:50:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
dheera 2021-08-19 16:32:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuW4oGKzVKc
That's what a president sounds like.
theandrewbailey 2021-08-19 17:04:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Kye 2021-08-19 15:44:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]
cronix 2021-08-19 16:47:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It's also 3 years away from opening in AZ (2024). Then they have to fine tune the equipment and processes over x runs. New plants tend to have low yields until those processes are smoothed out and perfected. You don't just set up a plant and start churning out chips with 98% success rate at 5nm once the factory is built. It probably takes 5-6 years from construction start to churning out quality chips in numbers that are actually profitable.
datameta 2021-08-19 15:56:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]
api 2021-08-19 15:59:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
datameta 2021-08-19 16:12:39 +0000 UTC [ - ]
nickff 2021-08-19 15:32:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
namelessoracle 2021-08-19 17:06:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The population can relate just fine. It's just there's no one rich and powerful who wants to make the investment that is making it an issue.
cutemonster 2021-08-19 15:08:26 +0000 UTC [ - ]
And on a bribes and corruption basis, to some extent, too?
For example, I never thought about what are the strategic industries, when voting.
throwawaygh 2021-08-19 15:17:50 +0000 UTC [ - ]
You're clearly not a dairy producer in Wisconsin, a military contractor in Virginia/Maryland, or a property owner in Southern Pines, NC.
sandyarmstrong 2021-08-19 15:28:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]
But he also saw the job as a lifetime career, which is partly generational and partly just a different mindset because a lot (most?) of the engineers there were former military.
I will say, though, that his mindset generally made for a very friendly and nurturing team experience.
diveandfight 2021-08-19 15:43:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
throwawaygh 2021-08-19 15:45:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I was just giving it as an example of how whole tertiary industries that aren't directly part of the military-industrial complex will none-the-less vote (R) like their lifestyle depends on it, and for the same reason as contractors.
unityByFreedom 2021-08-19 15:16:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mywittyname 2021-08-19 15:33:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]
West Virginia has "Friends of Coal" license plates. Indiana has IUOE license plates. etc.
kevin_nisbet 2021-08-19 15:21:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Especially in capital intensive industries, say cars, all of the competing countries are propping up or bailing out their auto industries. So even if companies should theoretically die and get replaced, there is a structural disadvantage as the competition in other countries has an insurance policy against companies failing (bailout / subsidy / tariffs / strategic protection / etc).
quadcore 2021-08-19 16:21:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]
fsloth 2021-08-19 16:25:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I think this time is quite a bit far off. But eventually will have sourcing price of just the raw materials. That said and regarding your next point -
"Ferrari and Rayban? Near-zero market value tomorrow."
On this I disagree strongly. Current trend is that IP becomes constantly more important. So that while manufacturing costs for said items may tumble, IP laws likely protect the sale of items branded as such. And the price difference does not likely result in cheaper prices, but in a bigger revenues.
shadowgovt 2021-08-19 15:18:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
War. In the event a war breaks out, a running auto plant can be re-tooled relatively rapidly into a light and heavy armor plant. It's not even a question of whether allies could supply tanks and troop transports; it's about having domestic capacity to make them because enemies could execute blockades and disrupt allied resource supply.
sonthonax 2021-08-19 15:20:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mywittyname 2021-08-19 15:37:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]
One scary fact that I learned is that, in war games between China and the USA, China almost always wins due to superior production capacity. Those $100B American battle carriers and $40MM advanced fighter jets can be taken out by $50,000 rockets/missiles produced at a rate of hundreds or thousands per day.
huge87 2021-08-19 15:49:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mywittyname 2021-08-19 16:25:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]
https://www.stripes.com/theaters/us/2021-07-27/US-China-mili...
dylan604 2021-08-19 16:09:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
mywittyname 2021-08-19 16:36:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Plus, any destroyer launching these at targets deep in Chinese territory will be within range of Chinese missiles. And, as we saw in Syria, Russian air defense systems are pretty effective against Tomahawks, and we should expect Chinese systems to be at least as effective.
zsmi 2021-08-19 16:55:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]
starfallg 2021-08-19 16:18:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
alisonkisk 2021-08-19 15:56:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
lallysingh 2021-08-19 16:15:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
shadowgovt 2021-08-19 15:23:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
starfallg 2021-08-19 15:31:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]
starfallg 2021-08-19 15:29:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]
flavius29663 2021-08-19 15:30:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Car factories might not make good tanks, but the mechanical engineers and tooling knowledge is invaluable and can't be scaled up overnight.
Same with solar panels, there's a reason both Obama and Trump imposed protective tariffs. One of the few areas both parties agree to. PV panels are the future of energy, so you need to have domestic factories no matter the cost.
jbay808 2021-08-19 16:37:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Another benefit of domestic factories is domestic innovation. It's much harder for an engineer coming out of university and going through their career working at an office computer terminal to ever make a breakthrough innovation, if they can't step inside the factory to see how things are really done.
If that factory is down the street, it's much easier to do an apprenticeship, get a tour, or chat with the manager about their pain points. If it's in another country, you'll have to schedule a formal visit and you'll probably need to be a very important customer for that to happen.
2021-08-19 14:49:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
unethical_ban 2021-08-19 15:28:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I figure there are also different definitions of strategic depending on the size and capability of an economy. The US is large and geographically fortunate enough that it theoretically "could" be almost entirely self-sustaining if it set its mind to it. Fuel, semiconductors, transport, lumber, food, guns.
guerrilla 2021-08-19 15:37:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Did you consider that it's because people need an income to survive? Employment is objectively a basic need for anyone who doesn't own sufficient capital being that they have nothing else to sell but their labor.
unethical_ban 2021-08-19 15:56:31 +0000 UTC [ - ]
baybal2 2021-08-19 15:03:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I read some year ago that there were laws in US which at least somehow discouraged the pharma from shipping manufacturing abroad, and it was the big pharma itself which lobbied these laws out.
This is how China held US at gunpoint in the early days of COVID — "Stay put, or we pull 90%+ of your antibiotics supply"