Hugo Hacker News

Don't Call Yourself A Programmer, And Other Career Advice (2011)

SwiftyBug 2021-08-19 16:01:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Don’t call yourself a programmer: “Programmer” sounds like “anomalously high-cost peon who types some mumbo-jumbo into some other mumbo-jumbo.”

That's a perfect description of what I do. I'm proudly a Programmer.

BulgarianIdiot 2021-08-19 16:15:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yeah, WTF is wrong with that. It's the job description.

Programmers are essentially a type of translator. They translate constraints expressed in human language to constraints expressed as computer language.

At the higher levels you have more say how exactly that happens in terms of system topology, but at that point you're no longer just a programmer, but an architect.

LennyWhiteJr 2021-08-19 16:19:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Yeah, WTF is wrong with that.

Nothing is 'wrong' with it. You just do it at the detriment of your own career.

swader999 2021-08-19 16:31:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I called myself a systems analyst. We don't use the term engineer in my country. It leads to conversations where I describe that a lot of my job is optimizing processes before I code them. This was a great article for the bulk of programmers that end up in business programming.

yawboakye 2021-08-19 16:24:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Programmers program computers. No different than dentists drill teeth. Or maybe we should adopt some Latinized or Hellenized name to infuse some mysticism? That’s our mistake?

FartyMcFarter 2021-08-19 16:41:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I think it's a bit different: there aren't many barely-trained (or untrained) people drilling teeth, but there are plenty of untrained programmers out there.

However the "software engineer" title is also applied to a lot of untrained programmers, so I'm not saying that this term is analogous to "dentist" even if it should be.

yawboakye 2021-08-19 16:51:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]

While I could agree with you, my fundamental disagreement rests on this: it is the practice that awards the title/description not the certification/training. I’m willing to submit the philosophical underpinnings of this argument but I believe even without that the statement above can stand on its own.

slumdev 2021-08-19 16:20:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> Yeah, WTF is wrong with that

Nothing is wrong with it. Donald Knuth proudly describes himself as a programmer.

But a good chunk of the people reading this comment probably make more money than he does, and title inflation is part of the stupid game we have to play to earn outsized rewards.

So proceed with caution.

dj_mc_merlin 2021-08-19 16:21:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Yes, but the advice he's giving is not meant to optimize for the most perfect description of what you actually do. It's meant to make what you do sound good in the eyes of people more concerned with making money than objectively and unambiguously describing things.

croes 2021-08-19 16:22:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That led to all those buggy software we now have. Maybe we shouldn't appease these "moneymakers".

pdimitar 2021-08-19 17:03:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I absolutely don't see the connection between the two, can you give examples?

(Also, "not appeasing those moneymakers" is the quickest way to get broke and become unemployable but hey, you do you.)

pstuart 2021-08-19 16:45:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Most of my work has involved shlepping bits from A to B, so I've become fond of the term Data Plumber.

xwdv 2021-08-19 16:19:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Calling yourself a programmer sounds fairly blue collar these days. If that’s what you want for yourself, fine. But don’t grumble when you get replaced by some cheap worker overseas.

SwiftyBug 2021-08-19 16:30:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I'm fine with it. Makes it easier to remind me to what class I really belong.

Epenthesis 2021-08-19 16:28:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I imagine this depends on what circles you run in. I feel like in silicon valley, the modal image is of a FAANG employee making 400 k$/yr.

the_only_law 2021-08-19 16:00:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> You radically overestimate the average skill of the competition because of the crowd you hang around with: Many people already successfully employed as senior engineers cannot actually implement FizzBuzz. Just read it and weep. Key takeaway: you probably are good enough to work at that company you think you’re not good enough for. They hire better mortals, but they still hire mortals.

As much as I want to believe this, I think the ability of developers separates itself in different “classes”. The senior devs who can’t complete a fizzbuzz are probably not the competition for the jobs I want.

borski 2021-08-19 16:07:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

You’re wrong, from my experience. I’ve interviewed many a “senior developer” who simply cannot code any longer because they’ve spent all their time doing other things or at a higher level.

Some can still code, and that’s your competition. Many cannot.

eysquared 2021-08-19 16:20:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]

As someone that has held that title at multiple FAANGS and done hundreds of interviews: please don't equate performance in the absurd interview process with ability to code.

Most of the best developers I know would fail a technical interview for their current job.

thatjoeoverthr 2021-08-19 16:41:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I think I just did last week. The interviewer asked me to explain SOLID. I could only remember the O and the L. All of these practices are deeply internalized but without having interviewed in a while, or even used English at work, the little speeches and buzzwords escaped me. Then he brought up REST. “What are important principles of REST?” Ummm, nounifaction? Uff.

pdimitar 2021-08-19 17:04:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I fully sympathize and I had to mute my mic once so the interviewer doesn't hear that I am searching for what SOLID stands for, and then I proceeded to explain each of the characters.

But to be fair... is that an actual technical interview?

swader999 2021-08-19 16:32:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Amen to that.

cactus2093 2021-08-19 16:38:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I'm sure it depends on your industry and location.

In silicon valley software companies (e.g. Google, FB, Twitter, Stripe, Airbnb, Uber, and all the smaller companies following the same interview & career ladder playbook) a senior engineer or L5 is just someone with around 5+ years of experience. They might have a few more meetings and spend a bit more time working on design docs, planning, mentoring others, etc. compared to more junior engineers, but their primary job is still writing code. Even at higher levels like Staff and Principal engineers, less time might be spent writing code and more time in meetings, leading committees, approving the largest in scope design docs, etc. but there are so few of these people and the bar is so high to get there that they were at least at one time some of the strongest engineers at the company, and they still code sometimes even at this level. In the entire IC track at these companies, I suspect you'll find approximately 0% of people that are so incompetent they are just unable to implement fizzbuzz. In the management track you'd find some, but even there I suspect quite a low percentage.

In other industries, maybe banking, large contractors, more old fashioned megacorps like the GE's of the world, I think there might be more "architect" and other technical tracks that are allegedly still programmer IC tracks but where the senior folks are much further removed from programming and wouldn't be able to implement fizzbuzz.

slumdev 2021-08-19 16:18:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The people who can't code any longer are still typically able to describe an algorithm, at least in pseudocode.

Whiteboarding Yet Another Graph Search Problem With Perfect Syntax[1] might be beyond their current short-term abilities, but I'd be surprised if they couldn't produce pseudocode and architectural design that solves most real-world problems.

On the other hand, there are plenty of "seniors" who couldn't write code in the first place.

[1]Everyone knows which employer does this.

ldjkfkdsjnv 2021-08-19 16:13:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I work with a bunch of senior engineers making 400-600k, I would say there isnt a huge difference between them and ones making 175k at a startup/non tech business. The biggest thing is comfort with scale, and high scale thinking. But its nothing thats difficult, just something to learn. If anything, I have seen much higher proficiency at startups where delivering across the stack is critical. Really, the interview process is segmenting engineers in ways that dont correlate with job performance (though there definitely is some signal)

blippage 2021-08-19 17:01:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The older I get the louder I shout at clouds.

"Engineers are hired to create business value, not to program things"

FFS. True enough, but it's still claptrap. One quote from George Orwell really struck for me: "speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act."

It's why now when people ask me what I do, I say "programmer", not "software developer". Actually, I usually say "computer programmer", because otherwise people get confused and think it might be to do with programming videos. Like programming your video recorder was a job, or something.

pfraze 2021-08-19 16:00:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Mmm. I get the idea, but I think there’s a better way to describe this.

Programmers are in such high demand that it’s the opposite of a dirty word. What’s being described feels more like mid- or late-career advice where you might want to specialize to keep advancing. That can mean deep-diving a domain, like the post suggests. It can mean focusing in a category of comp sci, like distributed systems or ML. It can mean consulting. It can mean management. Etc.

ChrisArchitect 2021-08-19 16:56:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

(2011)

anything new to add?

Some previous discussion:

2 years ago (which is basically same as now) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21303181

5 years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12548043

7 years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8147008

yawboakye 2021-08-19 16:20:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The bigger problem is the forced march of hobbyist programmers (who had to get this job just to pay the bills) into some corporate automata climbing up and down some ladder in the name of career. The only thing worse than a career is career advice, especially if given by a career programmer.

Enjoy being a programmer, from this you'd never have to retire. Enjoy the freedom; it shouldn’t be all about money and optimizing the optics of what you do, just to force some perspectives.

tengbretson 2021-08-19 16:08:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Don't engineers have engineering degrees or else have some other sort of credentials?

Epenthesis 2021-08-19 16:15:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]

It is a protected title in Canada, requiring a license, but not in the United States.

In the US, the title "Professional Engineer" is roughly equivalent and similarly requires a license.

fsckboy 2021-08-19 16:47:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]

adding to what you said, in the US the requirements of a professional engineering license varies by state;

but there has also been recent litigation and a court has ruled that having a degree from an engineering school in an engineering discipline entitles one to use the term https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-eng...

the reason for the requirement and confusion is essentially building codes and other government regulations: if you want to build or repair a building, you need to hire people to certify the work as meeting building codes; those people need licenses. But at the same time, a company can hire a bunch of fresh engineering graduates to work a such a project and not every one of them needs a license. Unfortunately, we just have the one word engineer that applies to both. "Licensed engineer" would be a clearer distinction than "Professional engineer"

swader999 2021-08-19 16:37:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The thinking in Canada is that engineer brings with it liability for the work so programmers don't use it here. It offends engineers if you use that word in your title. The only exception I've seen is electrical engineers that of course have a fair bit of coding. But I don't think I've seen them really use it much in their programming job descriptions even though they wear the engineering ring.

atoav 2021-08-19 16:14:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I have a MA of fine Arts. And a certification to do work on the German electrical grid.

I also am the best programmer in the whole IT department and the only one who has no CS background.

swader999 2021-08-19 16:42:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That's more common than you think. A respectable company Thoughtworks hired this way and boot camped and mentored people well the first couple years of their careers. I always like looking at the code and working with projects from their teams. Communication, working nicely with others, humility and the soft skills help you build a network so that when you need help you don't spin your wheels.

The bigO crowd will disagree but even the hard core comp sci types will go much further with real soft skills.

2021-08-19 16:17:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Mikeb85 2021-08-19 16:12:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

They're supposed to. Do all 'software engineers' have professional engineer credentials? Probably not.

thrwyoilarticle 2021-08-19 16:09:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I do have an electronic engineering degree.

k__ 2021-08-19 16:16:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I do, but I had the impression that those are a bit expensive in other countries.

ku-man 2021-08-19 16:12:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]

That was the case until the 2000's. Nowadays, if you can tweak a wordpress website you are an "engineer"

MattGaiser 2021-08-19 15:53:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> You really want to be attached to Profit Centers because it will bring you higher wages, more respect, and greater opportunities for everything of value to you.

I’m experiencing this now. I was attached to a theoretical (in the way that startups are) profit centre which just got whacked and now I am being shifted over to “business support.” Accordingly, we are the last to hear about anything.

Boss used to be consulted on things. Now he is told via email of who he now reports to.

croes 2021-08-19 16:21:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I think this explains a lot of the buggy software, companies should have employed someone who calls himself a programmer.

And maybe companies should learn that they need programmers especially good ones otherwise you get something like Salesforce

2021-08-19 15:57:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]

BiteCode_dev 2021-08-19 16:18:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]

When I was young I didn't cally myself a dev so that people would view me as more.

Now that I have enought, I do call myself a dev so that it filters annoying interractions.

jayd16 2021-08-19 15:45:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]

>Perceptive readers will note that 100 does not actually show up on a d100

Yes it does.

hacoo 2021-08-19 16:16:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Many d100s use ‘00’, which I always interpreted as ‘100’. Fitting 3 digits on a tiny die face is hard.

thomasahle 2021-08-19 15:52:21 +0000 UTC [ - ]

He included 0, so I guess his d100 is a [0, 99] kind

xwdv 2021-08-19 15:50:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Oof, pointing out an error like that already takes away any motivation from reading the featured article.

fxleach 2021-08-19 16:13:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Written by someone who sounds like they haven't done any programming.

2021-08-19 16:17:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]

newpatio11 2021-08-19 16:20:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Welcome to HN. Type less read more. Or has said else where: lurk more.

newpatio11 2021-08-19 16:23:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]

should've named this account patio12

oh well

ku-man 2021-08-19 16:08:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]

The author of this blog post uses the words engineer and engineering way too haphazardly. In my opinion, calling yourself engineer, when you are not a registered one, is a disservice to the actual engineers (that have to pass technical and ethical exams)

bickeringyokel 2021-08-19 16:44:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Conversely, engineers can be "registered" and relegated to other adjacent roles because their credentials have been eclipsed by their lack of meaningful experience, and their ideas are no better than the smart programmers in the room. So I do understand the haphazardness to a degree, anyone can engineer, but not everyone can be an engineer.

ModernMech 2021-08-19 15:55:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

> If you really like the atmosphere at universities, that is cool. Put a backpack on and you can walk into any building at any university in the United States any time you want.

I would not follow this advice if your really have no business being there. Most universities in the US are in fact private institutions and this would be considered trespassing if you are found out. You might have an easy time blending in, but if any faculty (not just police, at least at my institution) asks to see your school ID, you are required to produce it.

3pt14159 2021-08-19 16:03:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]

When I wanted to work from the University of Toronto I got an "Outside Researcher" card that let me use their libraries and get access to all their papers too! It was the cheapest desk you could rent in Toronto. Something like $100 a year and it came with access to all of their journals. In person, only, but still. Top notch ROI.

52-6F-62 2021-08-19 16:07:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]

TIL! This is great info

leetcrew 2021-08-19 16:05:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I don't think this is really true? most schools I'm familiar with are "open campuses". the public is free to walk around campus, visit the library, etc. during normal hours. restricted areas like dorms and labs with expensive equipment will be locked. as an outsider, I wouldn't try to sit in on a six person seminar without talking to the professor, but I'm sure no one would notice or care if you sat in on a few large lectures.

thebean11 2021-08-19 15:58:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Sure, but I can't imagine you'd get in any real trouble if caught. Play dumb, you'll just be asked to leave.

pfraze 2021-08-19 16:02:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]

One thing I know some schools offer is, IIRC, auditing classes. I did this at UT a few years ago. You basically pay a filing fee and then can attend classes without enrolling. No credits or degree possibility AFAIK, but you get to learn.

MattGaiser 2021-08-19 16:01:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Wouldn’t there be any number of visiting students, academics, speakers, researchers, research partners, study participants, etc?

My university was crawling with non-university people who were legitimately there.

ModernMech 2021-08-19 16:35:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]

All of those people have relationships with people already on campus, and many of them are given IDs if they're there long term. If you're just some guy with a backpack who hangs around campus for no reason and no one know what you're doing there, people are going to notice, at least where I'm from. YMMV

jongorer 2021-08-19 16:01:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]

"Sorry, I must've misplaced it somewhere - thanks though I'll make sure to find it now."

bitwize 2021-08-19 16:03:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Most universities these days also have their buildings locked with an RFID lock that responds to a valid university ID. To get into the buildings you will have to "tailgate" on someone else, which looks really sus.

MattGaiser 2021-08-19 16:11:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]

I graduated university two years ago. Anybody would let anyone in to anywhere unless you looked long term homeless.

You could randomly tap the glass and people would let you in.

jongorer 2021-08-19 16:08:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Have you ever been to uni? Tailgating is performed on a regular basis, even by ppl w/ cards that are too lazy to take them out of their backpacks.

leetcrew 2021-08-19 16:07:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]

meh, it's pretty common for students to lose/misplace their ID cards. where I went to college, people would usually let any college-aged person follow them into a building without a second thought.

whiskeytuesday 2021-08-19 15:53:56 +0000 UTC [ - ]

Wow is this ever condescending

jeffkeen 2021-08-19 16:03:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]

*confident