Don't Call Yourself A Programmer, And Other Career Advice (2011)
the_only_law 2021-08-19 16:00:02 +0000 UTC [ - ]
As much as I want to believe this, I think the ability of developers separates itself in different “classes”. The senior devs who can’t complete a fizzbuzz are probably not the competition for the jobs I want.
borski 2021-08-19 16:07:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Some can still code, and that’s your competition. Many cannot.
eysquared 2021-08-19 16:20:23 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Most of the best developers I know would fail a technical interview for their current job.
thatjoeoverthr 2021-08-19 16:41:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
pdimitar 2021-08-19 17:04:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
But to be fair... is that an actual technical interview?
cactus2093 2021-08-19 16:38:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
In silicon valley software companies (e.g. Google, FB, Twitter, Stripe, Airbnb, Uber, and all the smaller companies following the same interview & career ladder playbook) a senior engineer or L5 is just someone with around 5+ years of experience. They might have a few more meetings and spend a bit more time working on design docs, planning, mentoring others, etc. compared to more junior engineers, but their primary job is still writing code. Even at higher levels like Staff and Principal engineers, less time might be spent writing code and more time in meetings, leading committees, approving the largest in scope design docs, etc. but there are so few of these people and the bar is so high to get there that they were at least at one time some of the strongest engineers at the company, and they still code sometimes even at this level. In the entire IC track at these companies, I suspect you'll find approximately 0% of people that are so incompetent they are just unable to implement fizzbuzz. In the management track you'd find some, but even there I suspect quite a low percentage.
In other industries, maybe banking, large contractors, more old fashioned megacorps like the GE's of the world, I think there might be more "architect" and other technical tracks that are allegedly still programmer IC tracks but where the senior folks are much further removed from programming and wouldn't be able to implement fizzbuzz.
slumdev 2021-08-19 16:18:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Whiteboarding Yet Another Graph Search Problem With Perfect Syntax[1] might be beyond their current short-term abilities, but I'd be surprised if they couldn't produce pseudocode and architectural design that solves most real-world problems.
On the other hand, there are plenty of "seniors" who couldn't write code in the first place.
[1]Everyone knows which employer does this.
ldjkfkdsjnv 2021-08-19 16:13:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
blippage 2021-08-19 17:01:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]
"Engineers are hired to create business value, not to program things"
FFS. True enough, but it's still claptrap. One quote from George Orwell really struck for me: "speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act."
It's why now when people ask me what I do, I say "programmer", not "software developer". Actually, I usually say "computer programmer", because otherwise people get confused and think it might be to do with programming videos. Like programming your video recorder was a job, or something.
pfraze 2021-08-19 16:00:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Programmers are in such high demand that it’s the opposite of a dirty word. What’s being described feels more like mid- or late-career advice where you might want to specialize to keep advancing. That can mean deep-diving a domain, like the post suggests. It can mean focusing in a category of comp sci, like distributed systems or ML. It can mean consulting. It can mean management. Etc.
ChrisArchitect 2021-08-19 16:56:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
anything new to add?
Some previous discussion:
2 years ago (which is basically same as now) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21303181
5 years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12548043
7 years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8147008
yawboakye 2021-08-19 16:20:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Enjoy being a programmer, from this you'd never have to retire. Enjoy the freedom; it shouldn’t be all about money and optimizing the optics of what you do, just to force some perspectives.
tengbretson 2021-08-19 16:08:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Epenthesis 2021-08-19 16:15:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]
In the US, the title "Professional Engineer" is roughly equivalent and similarly requires a license.
fsckboy 2021-08-19 16:47:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
but there has also been recent litigation and a court has ruled that having a degree from an engineering school in an engineering discipline entitles one to use the term https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-eng...
the reason for the requirement and confusion is essentially building codes and other government regulations: if you want to build or repair a building, you need to hire people to certify the work as meeting building codes; those people need licenses. But at the same time, a company can hire a bunch of fresh engineering graduates to work a such a project and not every one of them needs a license. Unfortunately, we just have the one word engineer that applies to both. "Licensed engineer" would be a clearer distinction than "Professional engineer"
swader999 2021-08-19 16:37:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]
atoav 2021-08-19 16:14:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I also am the best programmer in the whole IT department and the only one who has no CS background.
swader999 2021-08-19 16:42:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
The bigO crowd will disagree but even the hard core comp sci types will go much further with real soft skills.
Mikeb85 2021-08-19 16:12:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
k__ 2021-08-19 16:16:57 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ku-man 2021-08-19 16:12:47 +0000 UTC [ - ]
MattGaiser 2021-08-19 15:53:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I’m experiencing this now. I was attached to a theoretical (in the way that startups are) profit centre which just got whacked and now I am being shifted over to “business support.” Accordingly, we are the last to hear about anything.
Boss used to be consulted on things. Now he is told via email of who he now reports to.
croes 2021-08-19 16:21:16 +0000 UTC [ - ]
And maybe companies should learn that they need programmers especially good ones otherwise you get something like Salesforce
BiteCode_dev 2021-08-19 16:18:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Now that I have enought, I do call myself a dev so that it filters annoying interractions.
jayd16 2021-08-19 15:45:22 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Yes it does.
hacoo 2021-08-19 16:16:43 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jakearmitage 2021-08-19 15:47:51 +0000 UTC [ - ]
xwdv 2021-08-19 15:50:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
fxleach 2021-08-19 16:13:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
newpatio11 2021-08-19 16:20:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ku-man 2021-08-19 16:08:48 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bickeringyokel 2021-08-19 16:44:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ModernMech 2021-08-19 15:55:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I would not follow this advice if your really have no business being there. Most universities in the US are in fact private institutions and this would be considered trespassing if you are found out. You might have an easy time blending in, but if any faculty (not just police, at least at my institution) asks to see your school ID, you are required to produce it.
3pt14159 2021-08-19 16:03:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
leetcrew 2021-08-19 16:05:15 +0000 UTC [ - ]
thebean11 2021-08-19 15:58:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]
pfraze 2021-08-19 16:02:53 +0000 UTC [ - ]
MattGaiser 2021-08-19 16:01:13 +0000 UTC [ - ]
My university was crawling with non-university people who were legitimately there.
ModernMech 2021-08-19 16:35:37 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jongorer 2021-08-19 16:01:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]
bitwize 2021-08-19 16:03:46 +0000 UTC [ - ]
MattGaiser 2021-08-19 16:11:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
You could randomly tap the glass and people would let you in.
jongorer 2021-08-19 16:08:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]
leetcrew 2021-08-19 16:07:12 +0000 UTC [ - ]
SwiftyBug 2021-08-19 16:01:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]
That's a perfect description of what I do. I'm proudly a Programmer.
BulgarianIdiot 2021-08-19 16:15:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Programmers are essentially a type of translator. They translate constraints expressed in human language to constraints expressed as computer language.
At the higher levels you have more say how exactly that happens in terms of system topology, but at that point you're no longer just a programmer, but an architect.
LennyWhiteJr 2021-08-19 16:19:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Nothing is 'wrong' with it. You just do it at the detriment of your own career.
swader999 2021-08-19 16:31:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]
yawboakye 2021-08-19 16:24:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]
FartyMcFarter 2021-08-19 16:41:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]
However the "software engineer" title is also applied to a lot of untrained programmers, so I'm not saying that this term is analogous to "dentist" even if it should be.
yawboakye 2021-08-19 16:51:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]
slumdev 2021-08-19 16:20:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Nothing is wrong with it. Donald Knuth proudly describes himself as a programmer.
But a good chunk of the people reading this comment probably make more money than he does, and title inflation is part of the stupid game we have to play to earn outsized rewards.
So proceed with caution.
dj_mc_merlin 2021-08-19 16:21:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
croes 2021-08-19 16:22:41 +0000 UTC [ - ]
pdimitar 2021-08-19 17:03:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
(Also, "not appeasing those moneymakers" is the quickest way to get broke and become unemployable but hey, you do you.)
pstuart 2021-08-19 16:45:44 +0000 UTC [ - ]
xwdv 2021-08-19 16:19:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]
SwiftyBug 2021-08-19 16:30:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Epenthesis 2021-08-19 16:28:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]