Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider bias
AHappyCamper 2021-08-19 17:08:24 +0000 UTC [ - ]
JohnWhigham 2021-08-19 16:53:32 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Actual crux of the issue. Stop trying to turn every fucking thing into a gender war.
Grollicus 2021-08-19 16:42:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(people)#...
jessaustin 2021-08-19 16:55:08 +0000 UTC [ - ]
fsckboy 2021-08-19 16:35:59 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jessaustin 2021-08-19 16:48:14 +0000 UTC [ - ]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donna_Strickland&...
tptacek 2021-08-19 16:55:19 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Ensorceled 2021-08-19 16:41:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
BeetleB 2021-08-19 17:01:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]
If an article about a professor is written and has virtually no references, then it's not the admin's job to do research to see if she is notable or not. It should be tagged as "needs references" and if they are not provided, eventually deleted.
In her particular case, the article didn't even exist - only a draft did - which was not approved because it had no references. The rejection notice specifically suggests resubmitting with references.
The story/study about bias is interesting, but they picked a poor example to showcase.
moonchrome 2021-08-19 17:03:05 +0000 UTC [ - ]
youeseh 2021-08-19 16:41:09 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I wish news outlets would stick to reporting the news.
Ensorceled 2021-08-19 16:47:03 +0000 UTC [ - ]
MichaelGroves 2021-08-19 17:03:20 +0000 UTC [ - ]
tptacek 2021-08-19 16:57:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jhgb 2021-08-19 16:55:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
not2b 2021-08-19 17:06:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]
They could relax the standard for deletion and it wouldn't hurt anything. If some editors think someone is prominent and others don't, leave the article in place, even if the "not prominent" side has a majority. If the article doesn't meet standards, tag it as a stub or with the "multiple issues" tag.
cool_dude85 2021-08-19 17:02:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jhgb 2021-08-19 17:06:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
cool_dude85 2021-08-19 16:43:17 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Surely publishing Nobel-level work in your field means you have already "risen to prominence."
jhgb 2021-08-19 16:59:35 +0000 UTC [ - ]
cool_dude85 2021-08-19 17:06:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]
And it's fine for them to get heat when they make bad decisions, or when people notice that those decisions are systematically biased. I don't have to solve the problem to say it's bad.
rob_c 2021-08-19 16:46:11 +0000 UTC [ - ]
This is not some marvel movie.
If someone has won the Nobel prize they've been changing and contributing in a huge way to their field of interest for many years.
cf100clunk 2021-08-19 16:45:36 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Anyway, as an admitted pedant, even I didn't make a big deal of the title.
codezero 2021-08-19 16:40:30 +0000 UTC [ - ]
ilamont 2021-08-19 16:39:33 +0000 UTC [ - ]
leephillips 2021-08-19 16:58:45 +0000 UTC [ - ]
rob_c 2021-08-19 17:02:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I like comparing Wikipedia to graffiti as it's heading in this direction at times but I'd think of it more like a notice board outside a town hall covered in signs for the next witch burning rather than a bathroom stall.
andyxor 2021-08-19 16:36:27 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Edit: looks like there is IPFS version https://blog.ipfs.io/24-uncensorable-wikipedia/
kwhitefoot 2021-08-19 16:55:10 +0000 UTC [ - ]
jimbob45 2021-08-19 16:39:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
rob_c 2021-08-19 16:56:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Or historical facts which should be presented as being unbiased and isn't something which is now changing (unless we find an ancient dvd player in the pyramids).
If this existed and Wikipedia worked with this "factopedia" to pull from it I'd very happily contribute.
Potentially a wiki with some basic checks for having at least an undergraduate in the field of question?
andyxor 2021-08-19 16:49:07 +0000 UTC [ - ]
the distribution would be via something like a search portal on IPFS with ranking of different article versions to appear in search results similar to google Pagerank, based on popularity, or create an explicit mechanism of social voting similar to Reddit.
yes it might also be biased but at least there will be no single source of "truth" and people can make their own mind which version to believe, and be able to do something like "sort by controversial" as they do on Reddit so see different opinions
bena 2021-08-19 16:39:25 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Wikipedia has the same problem every major "community-driven" site does, those with the most time dictate the culture. And since there is no real compensation for that time, no one whose time is worth anything is going to be a major factor.
darepublic 2021-08-19 16:29:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
It has been wittled down numerous times over the years but the skeleton of the man's life remains.
sombremesa 2021-08-19 16:35:04 +0000 UTC [ - ]
rob_c 2021-08-19 16:42:58 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Wrote up a long description about how the equipment I used for my master's worked (fleshing out a stub article). Only to have some moderator (being extremely polite here) revert the whole thing because it was "uncited". When challenged I ended up getting temp banned for telling them "I know how it works I just built one". Haven't trusted or contributed since it's moving closer to a collective "what we want to know" information service which makes me want to invest more in an actual encyclopedia.
crazygringo 2021-08-19 16:58:42 +0000 UTC [ - ]
So Wikipedia is built primarily around not even primary sources but secondary sources for a good reason.
Yes it may lose out in some valuable knowledge such as yours in the process -- but it achieves a greater good of minimizing Wikipedia being flooded by incorrect or even harmful information.
In the absence of an omniscient impartial arbitrer, requiring citations of secondary sources is a pretty good rule.
the_third_wave 2021-08-19 16:52:18 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I'd say it is moving towards a "what we want you to think" corpus, with politically motivated activists taking over from objective editors. Those activists will use the language of editors, calling upon the myriad of policies put in place when Wikipedia was growing, while bending and changing that language towards their own goals.
vidarh 2021-08-19 16:56:49 +0000 UTC [ - ]
tedsanders 2021-08-19 16:52:00 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I say this as someone who spent weeks writing up a new Wikipedia article with 50 citations and then had it graded a C because I used too many primary sources instead of secondary sources. I empathize with you, but I also empathize with the editors.
rob_c 2021-08-19 16:59:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
I'd argue having an unpolished article in need of work is better than a stub as it encourages interaction.
Not to mention being told to stop using a paywall for citing a journal (which is now out of print) as a source.
rob_c 2021-08-19 16:50:54 +0000 UTC [ - ]
If I'm being voted down what is so great about the ignorance of the masses here?
Wikipedia has some serious (and in come cases concerningly anti-science) biases. Which is honestly love for them to address at a community level.
tptacek 2021-08-19 16:52:06 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Normally, when you read a story like this, someone created an article and someone else petitioned to have it deleted (with an "AfD") and there's a whole debate log you can read, and you could try to assess people's biases from the comments they left in the AfD.
Here, though, no article was ever created (prior to 2018, when Strickland was awarded her Nobel). Instead, a beginner editor wrote a draft of an article through the "Articles for Creation" ("AfC") process. AfC drafts are, apparently, reviewed by admins before being promoted to the "mainspace" of real articles. You can read the draft here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=842614385
This is a stub article --- merely the beginning of a real article. And that's fine; it's how lots of good articles start out. But it's easy to see how an admin churning through AfC stub drafts might not have clearly understood the notability of the subject. The article links mostly to the professor's own research group. There are hundreds of thousands of academics whose position in the encyclopedia could also be established with links to their research groups!
What I think is probably more important here though is that the original article, the one we talk about as being "deleted", was created with a special process where the author asked for permission to have it added. That's not how Wikipedia ordinarily works; you have to opt in to the permissions process. The author could just as easily have simply created a Strickland article in the mainspace, and the process that deleted it would have been more formal, would have included appeals, and there'd be a log of the reasoning. It likely would have survived. The author of the draft essentially asked for that not to happen, by using the AfC process.
It seems important to add here: had it been an actual article, and had it been deleted through a speedy deletion or a full-blown AfD process, it would be more difficult to get a Strickland article onto WP in the future (not "difficult", just "more difficult"). But there wasn't, so, in the entire span of time prior to Strickland's Nobel, anybody could have created a stub article for her and her work. From what I can tell, nobody did. That, to me, is the more telling phenomenon here, not the draft deletion.
crazygringo 2021-08-19 17:05:29 +0000 UTC [ - ]
Yup, that's really the crux of it. Wikipedia isn't meant for every tenured professor to have a page, the same way an actor with only one IMDB credit doesn't get a page either. And sadly that stub article doesn't seem to clearly explain why this particular professor does.
In hindsight "Nobel prize laureate" is obviously notable... but it's the job of someone creating a page to make the notability rationale clear.
rob_c 2021-08-19 17:04:34 +0000 UTC [ - ]
If articles such as this get stricken off and she hadn't won a novel prize someone would just cite "deleted as before" when someone attempts to start a new article again.